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Old 03-01-2016, 06:31 PM   #1
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Ok, the May 2015 election thread was dated. Continue your discussion here, please.
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:52 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
The majority of your suggestions - while all good and desirable - are beyond the means of the poor and most of the middle class. The poor actually profit under this scheme by doing nothing. Which, obviously, disincentivizes making change.
The poor and most of the middle class are incapable of finding a barber closer to their house or putting on a sweater and keeping the temperature a little lower? How hapless do you think most people are?

People buy new cars all the time. Not just the super rich. Middle class folk might consider something in the vein of a 4-cylinder turbo AWD instead of a V8 powered Jeep Grand Cherokee. Can't buy new? There are three Toyota Prius on Autotrader right now for less than 20K. One is even available for under $10 grand.

If you need to upgrade a furnace, you own your own home. Worst case scenario, you tap into you home equity for a couple G's - if you're renting, it's the landlord's problem. There will be those who drag their feet, but when their tenants move on to places that don't cost a fortune to heat and they're struggling to fill a vacancy because it's asinine to pay $300/month to heat a two bedroom one-level townhouse, they'll follow suit.

I also love the notion that poor people stay poor because it's just so great having no money. The poor allegedly profit by staying on welfare and doing no work as well. That's why it's totally something that's widespread and rampant and ruining our society.
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Old 01-04-2017, 03:05 PM   #3
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Only those produced in Alberta. We will still be able to buy the same crap from anywhere else, probably at a cheaper price because they weren't forced to pay a tax. It's basically punishment for creating jobs in Alberta.
Only if you assume that producers won't make the same choices with respect to their businesses (less carbon intensive substitutions to avoid additional costs). Really, I already addressed that point to puckedoff's comment. It's not like buying from far flung places doesn't produce it's own surplus costs.
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Old 01-04-2017, 03:10 PM   #4
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Those aren't suggestions... they're examples.

Like I said it's composed of many many many different choices that have a cumulative effect. Carbon intensive products are going to become more expensive thereby providing an incentive to purchase (and by extension produce) less carbon intensive products. This applies to all people regardless of the level of economic comfort they have.

And really... the only examples I used that were perhaps beyond the means of the poor and most of the middle class was maybe buying the hybrid (which was really just a proxy way of saying if you buy a car chose the option with the better fuel efficiency) and the furnace (same except for home owners).
Electricity and gasoline are mostly inelastic though.
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Old 01-04-2017, 03:14 PM   #5
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Essentially, he's saying that all of the "adjustments" you're making are things that the vast majority of us already did prior to the Carbon Tax from being implemented. You had room to make adjustments... the rest of us? Not so much.
The key is easy adjustments.

Oh man, turning lights off when you leave the room is rough.

Only idling your car (truck?) for 5 minutes instead of 15? Must be hell.

Turning the heat from tropical to sub-tropical is almost pushing it too far.

This far! No further!
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Old 01-04-2017, 03:18 PM   #6
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Electricity and gasoline are mostly inelastic though.
http://economics.about.com/od/pricee...line_elast.htm

Just one part of the puzzle in any respect.
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Old 01-04-2017, 03:55 PM   #7
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http://economics.about.com/od/pricee...line_elast.htm

Just one part of the puzzle in any respect.
Thanks for the link.

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Goodwin et. al. find that in the short-run the price elasticity of demand is -0.25, with a standard deviation of 0.15, while the long rise price elasticity of -0.64 has a standard deviation of -0.44.
In the short run (1 year per the article) gasoline is far less elastic though, which means a carbon price won't generate a large decrease in demand. This allows the government to generate their billions even though carbon emissions would not significantly decrease during that time.

It could be a good 10 year plan where the environmental impact is lessened, I don't know. I doubt the NDP will be around for the long haul anyway so this might all be moot. Bottom line is I just don't believe they really care about the environment.
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Old 01-04-2017, 04:39 PM   #8
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The poor and most of the middle class are incapable of finding a barber closer to their house or putting on a sweater and keeping the temperature a little lower? How hapless do you think most people are?
To someone interested in an intelligent argument, the word "most" means "not all". Someone being a git would naturally focus on the things that are obviously not meant to be part of the "most".

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People buy new cars all the time. Not just the super rich. Middle class folk might consider something in the vein of a 4-cylinder turbo AWD instead of a V8 powered Jeep Grand Cherokee. Can't buy new? There are three Toyota Prius on Autotrader right now for less than 20K. One is even available for under $10 grand.
The people in my example buy cars when they need to, not before. Your argument forces such people into a large expense now that they may not be currently planning to make. You have failed to rebut my argument.

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If you need to upgrade a furnace, you own your own home. Worst case scenario, you tap into you home equity for a couple G's - if you're renting, it's the landlord's problem. There will be those who drag their feet, but when their tenants move on to places that don't cost a fortune to heat and they're struggling to fill a vacancy because it's asinine to pay $300/month to heat a two bedroom one-level townhouse, they'll follow suit.
Likewise, you are asking people to swallow a large expense they may not be able to afford. "Oh, just tap into your equity" is still asking a person to take on debt.

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I also love the notion that poor people stay poor because it's just so great having no money. The poor allegedly profit by staying on welfare and doing no work as well. That's why it's totally something that's widespread and rampant and ruining our society.
That notion is irrelevant to any part of my comment. It is obviously a misdirected whine against my comment about the poor profiting from this tax. Well, CBC and everyone else says that some people will indeed receive a larger rebate than they will spend to fund the Carbon Sales Tax. They will, objectively, profit from this tax. Which, as I noted - and you clearly made a conscious decision to ignore because it is inconvenient to you - does not act as an incentive to make "green" lifestyle changes.
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:27 PM   #9
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Can I please ask you a serious question?

I am a father of 2 and my wife and I both have full time jobs. I am also from Calgary where it can be a bit cold sometimes as you are aware.

I am trying not be partisan, but I am really curious as
to how I am supposed to change my behavior due to the carbon tax.

Am I supposed to now take public transit with my daughter in her car seat and drop her to day care on the LRT and then take the bus to work from her day care?
I like how no one would answer this for you. I would face the exact same ludicrous scenario. Apparently people think we would should, in -30 in the winter, with a small child in a stroller, or carrying a small child in a carrier, walk to a transit stop, and wait for a bus. Then try to mange riding the bus with a carrier or a stroller, possibly a bus jammed with other parents with a carrier or a stroller also going to the day care. Then get off the bus and walk to the day care. Then walk back to the stop you just got off at. Then wait for another bus, which maybe will might not show up 30 minutes or more. And then take a train, and maybe another bus, to work.

Or I can drive to the daycare in minutes.

Or apparently, according to the lesser intellects around here, I can lose a bunch of money buying a smaller car to put my growing family in.

Fortunately I make a good living and can absorb these extra costs and not change my lifestyle one bit.

The poor though, the poor are going to suffer under this regime. "You're getting a rebate" they're told. Like they somehow can easily eat the costs upfront and hope for a cheque to show up some day in the unknown future.
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:46 PM   #10
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It would be nice though if we had developed the mindset that the daycares should be located on the LRT, that there should be many LRT lines, and that taking your kids with you on the LRT in the morning should be feasible.
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Old 01-04-2017, 11:21 PM   #11
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I posted this on the O Leary thread but it belongs here as well.

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Old 01-05-2017, 07:09 AM   #12
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It would be nice though if we had developed the mindset that the daycares should be located on the LRT, that there should be many LRT lines, and that taking your kids with you on the LRT in the morning should be feasible.
Difficulty: The one party/government that is telling us to take transit is the one party/government dragging its heels on funding a new LRT line.
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Old 01-05-2017, 07:49 AM   #13
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I wonder how much it will cost to send out rebates to 99% of Albertans. I seem to recall the administration costs of Ralphbucks ran into millions.

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Alberta climate leadership adjustment rebate

The Alberta climate leadership adjustment rebate (ACLAR) is a tax-free amount paid to low and middle income individuals and families. It is intended to help households adjust to the new provincial carbon price.

The first payment to qualifying individuals and families will be issued on January 5, 2017. The first year of the program will cover a six month period from January 2017 to June 2017.

For January 2017 to June 2017, you may be entitled to receive:

$100 if you are a single individual with no children
$150 if you have a spouse or common-law partner
$150 if you do not have a spouse or common-law partner, but have full custody of an eligible child
plus

$15 per additional child under 18 years of age (to a maximum of 4 children)
For single individuals with no children, the rebate is reduced by 2.67% of adjusted family net income over $47,500. For families, the credit is reduced by 4.0% of adjusted family net income over $95,000.

Payments are made separately from the GST/HST credit payments.

The program is fully funded by the Alberta provincial government.

For more information and to find out if you qualify, to go More information on the Alberta climate leadership adjustment rebate.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:09 AM   #14
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Isn't it supposed to be 66% of Albertans getting a rebate?
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:13 AM   #15
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Wait, since when do all the right-wingers here care about poor people? Because it's suddenly politically expedient?
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814 View Post
The poor and most of the middle class are incapable of finding a barber closer to their house or putting on a sweater and keeping the temperature a little lower? How hapless do you think most people are?

People buy new cars all the time. Not just the super rich. Middle class folk might consider something in the vein of a 4-cylinder turbo AWD instead of a V8 powered Jeep Grand Cherokee. Can't buy new? There are three Toyota Prius on Autotrader right now for less than 20K. One is even available for under $10 grand.

If you need to upgrade a furnace, you own your own home. Worst case scenario, you tap into you home equity for a couple G's - if you're renting, it's the landlord's problem. There will be those who drag their feet, but when their tenants move on to places that don't cost a fortune to heat and they're struggling to fill a vacancy because it's asinine to pay $300/month to heat a two bedroom one-level townhouse, they'll follow suit.

I also love the notion that poor people stay poor because it's just so great having no money. The poor allegedly profit by staying on welfare and doing no work as well. That's why it's totally something that's widespread and rampant and ruining our society.
Yeah, let's tell anyone living beyond their means or down on their luck to sit in a 12 degree living room when it's minus twenty outside to save ten dollars a month on the heating bill....While they're at it they are also supposed to further max out their mortgages/credit to improve their malfunctioning appliances they cannot afford to begin with?

For most people who are struggling or "poor", the notion of what you're proposing is so unreachable it's not even funny. If you're truly poor or working poor, you don't somehow have access to 10k to buy a used car and you certainly do not have ample unused credit or equity to be tapped into at a reasonable rate to buy the latest high efficiency appliances.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:34 AM   #17
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Wait, since when do all the right-wingers here care about poor people? Because it's suddenly politically expedient?
That's an incredibly stupid statement.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:34 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814 View Post
The poor and most of the middle class are incapable of finding a barber closer to their house or putting on a sweater and keeping the temperature a little lower? How hapless do you think most people are?

People buy new cars all the time. Not just the super rich. Middle class folk might consider something in the vein of a 4-cylinder turbo AWD instead of a V8 powered Jeep Grand Cherokee. Can't buy new? There are three Toyota Prius on Autotrader right now for less than 20K. One is even available for under $10 grand.

If you need to upgrade a furnace, you own your own home. Worst case scenario, you tap into you home equity for a couple G's - if you're renting, it's the landlord's problem. There will be those who drag their feet, but when their tenants move on to places that don't cost a fortune to heat and they're struggling to fill a vacancy because it's asinine to pay $300/month to heat a two bedroom one-level townhouse, they'll follow suit.

I also love the notion that poor people stay poor because it's just so great having no money. The poor allegedly profit by staying on welfare and doing no work as well. That's why it's totally something that's widespread and rampant and ruining our society.
Lot a crazy stuff going on there. Like financing used cars is just so cheap and easy. Like tapping into your mortgage is as easy as slapping your banker across the face and walking out with your check. Like moving is free and super easy. Poor people stay poor because they do the things you suggest.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:40 AM   #19
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You know what hurts poor people? Artifically raising the cost of the basic necessities of life like gasoline, electricity, and food.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:42 AM   #20
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Wait, since when do all the right-wingers here care about poor people? Because it's suddenly politically expedient?
While this is a novel approach, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by declaring to all that you're unable to overcome your own ignorance.
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