04-20-2017, 09:27 PM
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#241
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Lifetime Suspension
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Ramo was in the KHL before joining the Flames
Ortio never was an NHL goalie
and Hillier was given one last chance on a desperate Flames team after being pushed out by younger better goalies in Anaheim.
Fantastic students. Yeesh.
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04-20-2017, 09:28 PM
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#242
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Franchise Player
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[QUOTE=Burner;6235097]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy
Sure it can.
Hiller, Ramo and Ortio?
All playing in Europe this year. There is a reason -- yeah ruined by incompetent coaching..
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Really? How so? What specifically did Sigalet do while coaching these guys to ruin them? If you know something please share it. I'd love to know.
Seems more likely that you (and many others) are just looking for someone to point the finger at, when more likely it's just a bunch of goalie who aren't good enough, or were never good enough to begin with.
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04-20-2017, 09:30 PM
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#243
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod
It's professional sports. You either perform or you don't. If you don't, you deal with the fallout (ie: criticism, loss of market value, etc). He didn't perform.
At the end of the day he's a multimillionaire who gets to go home to a hot wife, loving family, and a financially secure future. There are people in the world who deserve sympathy; I don't think Elliott is one of them.
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I can have sympathy for a guy who gives his best effort and lets down his teammates and fans in the process. Do I need to check out his wife before I can feel that way?
That's different than starting up a gofundme site for the guy.
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04-20-2017, 10:01 PM
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#244
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First Line Centre
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Maybe Parsons van step right up and become the next Tom Barrasso? The hype behind that kid is pretty exceptional. Gillies looked solid in his debut, but it was a small sample size. We do have a glut of young goalies and it's not looking like we have enough spaces for them all to play... unless Calgary rolls with an all rookie tandem, which is highly unlikely.
I'd flip Mason McDonald & a draft pick to Pittsburgh for MAF, then let one of Parsons or Gillies duke it out to be his understudy. (If this were EA Sports)
Elliott... I just don't get it. Must be something mentally weak about him when the pressure is on. It's like the puck just goes in straight through his torso sometimes. So. Weird.
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04-20-2017, 10:07 PM
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#245
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browna
Those old enough will remember Turek letting in one early against Tampa in the 2004 regular season in Jan or Feb. He got stupidly booed on every goal after, including a Tampa 2 on 0 breakaway and a 3 on 1, as the Flames got trounced.
Sutter never played him at home again,until he came in for mop up duty in Game 4 vs SJ as the Flames were losing big going into the third, and, the next game 5 was the next day back in SJ.
He did play on the road in the regular season and had a huge few games, one in particular vs Vancouver which was the game before the Flames clinched the playoffs at home. And then Sutter and he agreed to redo his contract to extend it another year past the one hat was left, but the lockout took care of that and Turek moved on.
Parallels with Elliott, who didn't get nearly the credit for his stellar play down the stretch to get the Flames in,or in game 1 or 2 of the series to keep the Flames within one goal those games.
But, like Turek, the mob has likely somewhat unfairly spoken and given his contract, he won't get the cooling off period that Turek had as backup for Kipper in winter and spring 2004, so Elliott is likely one and done. Johnson will likely stick around being a Calgary fu.
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You're really trying to make that comparison?
- Turek didn't nearly single-handedly squander his team's opportunity to get back into a playoff series. Elliott gave up at least one soft goal in each game this series and crapped the bed in game 3 when his team gave him a big lead to work with.
- Turek wasn't seen as a #1 goalie by Sutter. Following the "experiment", it was clear that Sutter wanted an upgrade in goal and would have kept looking for one if Kipper hadn't emerged the way he did. Elliott on the other hand was brought here specifically to be the answer in net following last year's debacle. He was counted upon to come up big for his teammates but he let them down bigtime.
- Elliott may have played well during that month and a half stretch, but he also struggled mightily earlier in the season and needed Johnson to bail him out.
- There is no Kipper-calibre goalie here for Elliott to hide behind.
As for not appreciating Kipper, that's laughable. I think most Flames fans understand that he's the main reason why the Flames made the playoffs 5 seasons in a row.
Quote:
I can have sympathy for a guy who gives his best effort and lets down his teammates and fans in the process. Do I need to check out his wife before I can feel that way?
That's different than starting up a gofundme site for the guy.
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You can do whatever you want. I was just trying to offer some perspective.
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04-20-2017, 10:14 PM
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#246
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#1 Goaltender
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Elliot was poor to start the year, finally got his game going end of February, beginning of March. So that puts him at around 1/4 of the season that he was really good.
And he was the primary reason they lost their playoff series.
Bad at the beginning, bad at the end, and inconsistent before his good streak. He has done nothing in a Flames jersey that would justify bringing him back under any circumstances.
There is never a sure thing in player personnel decisions, but this is a time to get someone that, percentages are high, can be relied upon.
And be very careful putting too much faith in our young prospect goaltenders. Anyone who has watched this team, or the league, for any length of time should know that having potential is easy, actually becoming a top goalie is another thing completely.
Maybe Gillies will be ready in 2 years. Or maybe 3. Could be 4. Might be never.
Same with Parsons.
In the meantime, the team is ready to start competing. Don't prevent a playoff run from happening by hamstringing the goalie situation.
Last edited by Ryan Coke; 04-20-2017 at 10:45 PM.
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04-20-2017, 10:22 PM
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#247
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod
You can do whatever you want. I was just trying to offer some perspective.
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Ya and a pretty ####ty perspective at that. Just because these guys are the best at their craft doesn't immune them from ####ty days or emotion. Has nothing to do with how hot his wife is or how much money is in his bank account. It's about the feeling of letting you team, organization and city down. I'm sure he will get over it but in the moment I do feel for him. Does that mean I want him back as a Flame? No.
Last edited by CGY12; 04-21-2017 at 08:30 AM.
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04-20-2017, 10:48 PM
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#248
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The toilet of Alberta : Edmonton
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Bishop and Schneider are too cost prohibitive and are on the wrong side of 30 already. Picking up a young guy with huge upside is smarter for 2 reasons. The first being the cost is cheaper both in terms of acquisition cost and in terms of salary, being they are an unproven commodity. Secondly, we have 2 blue chip goalie prospects. I'm fully confident one of Gillies and/or Parsons will develop into a legitimate starter. If you have Schneider/Bishop signed to long term deals it is going to be very hard to rid yourselves of that contract to make way for the young guy. If you pick up a guy like Grubauer, and he pans out, you now have two solid, young guys, likely on very reasonable deals, one of which should provide a much better return in trade compared to an aging Schneider/Bishop. I realize there is a risk to hedge your bets that one of Grubauer/Gillies/Parsons will develop into a #1 but it's still less risky than getting an aging guy who will/has a
long term deal for max dollars. Look at the last few Cup winners Murray, Crawford x 2, Quick x 2, Thomas, Niemi, Fleury. Only one guy was north of 30 at the time they won the cup.
__________________
"Illusions Michael, tricks are something a wh*re does for money ....... or cocaine"
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04-20-2017, 10:51 PM
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#249
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGY12
Ya and a pretty ####ty perspective at that. Just because these guys are the best at their craft doesn't immune them from ####ty days or emotion. Has nothing to do with how hot his wife is or how much money is in his back account. It's about the feeling of letting you team, organization and city down. I'm sure he will get over it but in the moment I do feel for him. Does that mean I want him back as a Flame? No.
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What a reasonable person would say: "I don't see it the same way you do. Let's agree to disagree."
What most CPers say: "Your opinion is ####ty!!!!!!!!!"
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04-20-2017, 11:15 PM
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#250
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Offered up a bag of cans for a custom user title
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Westside
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I was really disappointed we didn't somehow get Gillies in net last night. If Elliot is pulled, throw him in. We are already down 3-0, obviously down in goals in game 4 (since Elliot is pulled), and we see what Gillies can do while giving him a valuable experience.
The exact scenario happened, and Chad plays, yet here we are not even sure if we should sign Elliot or Johnson. Seems like a missed opportunity.
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04-20-2017, 11:19 PM
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#251
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damn onions
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Mathgod I respect you as a poster but on this one I just think you're being a bit harsh. I was at the game last night and the body language was pretty telling, and I was watching pretty intently. Here's a ridiculous over-the-top play by play but it may help describe where I'm going with this:
As soon as the puck went in, you could tell Elliott seemed confused as to how it even happened. He kinda looked around and down at his pad. His pad was on the ice flat but just somehow it squeaked through. Obviously unacceptable, but Elliott already knew that. He immediately stood up and just stood in his net. Johnson was flagged and hopped on the ice to begin stretching and warming up quickly, by the bench. Elliott would have seen him right then and known he was being pulled, but he continued to stand in his net for another 20 seconds or so, head down. Then he starts to make his way to the bench very slowly, and immediately exiting the ice just walks down the corridor to the dressing room. The crowd starts cheering very loudly about the goalie change (ouch...). My seats are directly across, so we can see down the hall a little. He stood by himself in the hallway, looked very, very upset... staring at the wall, turning around almost kinda squirming a bit. Head thrown back. Next, he returns to the bench, doesn't talk to anyone, doesn't remove his helmet for the entire period, and is still as a statue. Good lord even at that point I was like somebody go give that man a hug and prevent a suicide here.
I came home and hopped on here of course. I see some comments which are crazy aggressive in the GT (jesus, let's hope he doesn't read that) and then similar comments about him in the PGT (same as above). People are saying F him, screw this guy, hope his career his over... basically acting as if he is the worst person possible on earth for making this one mistake. Was it a crazy huge mistake? Absolutely! Does it mean he should be done with Calgary? Probably, maybe, I dunno but the whole approach and everything that happened just seemed way too excessive for my liking. Some of these things don't need to be said. Then the media today. Holy hell, Francis writes an article saying there's NO WAY he will ever return to the team. Media guys saying his career is over. The entire city buzzing over how ####ty you are...
Like holy #### people. Take it easy. The guy made a huge mistake and it's going to cost him his career or at least multiple millions in contract this summer. But he didn't have sex with your wife and then shoot your dog and take a #### on your front porch. This isn't the devil reincarnate. He is after all still a human being, and I think that's where the defense of him is coming from. So you don't think he has a hard life? I agree, does that mean he deserves this much criticism levied against him for a couple bad games / bad playoffs when he played pretty fricken good in the middle of the season and the Flames offense mustered 2 goals on 5 v 5 all series?
Gaudreau played like garbage did you want him shot, drawn and quartered at town center too?
It's all just a bit much. It's a sport, it's a game. He made a mistake. Let's pump the brakes a bit here.
Last edited by Mr.Coffee; 04-20-2017 at 11:23 PM.
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04-20-2017, 11:22 PM
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#252
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver :(
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^ Well said
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04-20-2017, 11:39 PM
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#253
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Scoring Winger
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Calgary, AB
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WTB Martin Jones.
__________________
My signature is awesome.
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04-21-2017, 01:29 AM
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#254
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Franchise Player
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Elliott is a FANTASTIC 1B goalie in my mind. If you don't have a bona fide starter, you try and run a tandem. Have a young up and coming goalie, but afraid he isn't ready for a starter's job? Elliott is perfect in that scenario. Elliott is a guy who proves it every season that he can accumulate wins like nobody's business. He is just inconsistent.
The only scenario that I would welcome him back is if the Flames find an upgrade on Johnson, and use Elliott as a 'super backup' that can take over when the going gets tough, but have a guy that takes over from Elliott when things get rough for him.
A premier goalie has ONE bad start, and then comes out the next game and erases it. Elliott will have multiple great games in a row, and then go on a dive. Great 1A/1B guy, but I am hoping the Flames find a way to grab a real CONSISTENT starter.
As for Sigalet, I won't begin to guess as to how good or bad he is as a goalie coach. It is easy to point at him as to why goalies regress. Maybe this team is just not confident and composed enough to help out a goalie when they inevitably stumble, and it just leads to a bad run?
The only evidence that was good or bad that I have ever stumbled across when it came to Sigalet was a good piece in how he helped Ramo out last season. Ramo was sent down for poor performance, and Sigalet kept in touch with him and told him what he needs to work on, and Ramo took it to heart. He got another chance, and I thought he was a very consistent goalie until his injury (was part of that franchise record consecutive wins at home, IIRC).
The only thing I know when it comes to goalies is that this off-season will have a plethora of options to trade for, sign as a UFA, or even work out a deal with Vegas for them to select a goalie off a team and trade him to us for a predetermined price. There will probably not be a better season to acquire goalie talent than this one for the foreseeable future, so I really hope that the Flames did their homework throughout the year.
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04-21-2017, 02:43 AM
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#255
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polak
How many times do I have to explain that signing a goalie who played 40 games with top tier numbers and is coming off a bad year for super cheap and short term is far better than signing a goalie who played 60 games with top tier numbers and is coming off a bad year for double or triple the dollars and term before you get it?
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You don't have to repeat your opinion just because people don't agree with you.
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04-21-2017, 06:05 AM
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#256
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe
Elliott is a FANTASTIC 1B goalie in my mind. If you don't have a bona fide starter, you try and run a tandem. Have a young up and coming goalie, but afraid he isn't ready for a starter's job? Elliott is perfect in that scenario. Elliott is a guy who proves it every season that he can accumulate wins like nobody's business. He is just inconsistent.
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He's not just inconsistent. He's terribly inconsistent, especially in the playoffs. Which is why no team that hopes to win playoff rounds should sign him.
Here's Elliotts stats for his last 3 starts each time he's been a playoff starter:
2010: 10 goals on 76 shots for a SV& of 868
2012: 8 goals on 60 shots for a SV% of .866
2013: 8 goals in 66 shots for a SV% of .878.
2016: 10 goals in 63 shots for a SV% of .841
2017: 9 goals in 56 shots for a SV% of .839
Unsurprisingly there are several real stinkers in there. Remember this series winning goal from 2013. Kings only had 16 shots on goal in that game.
(For a reference point, Elliott has played a total of 37 playoff games for a combined SV% of .913. In other words: he's fine until he collapses, at which point he's terrible.)
People keep talking about his last season as if that was different from his usual, but when I look at it I see the same as always. Very solid goaltending until he collapses. Last year it just took longer than usual, but again he couldn't recover once it happened. (In that last series against the Sharks he actually sat for two games while Allen played, but still wasn't any good in his last game).
In other words: If you dream of a long playoff run, you should never take your chances with Elliott. Not even as a backup, because if your starter gets injured Elliott becomes your starter, and your chances of getting a not-terrible game out of him are not much better than 50/50.
In the regular season 50/50 between great and bad games is tolerable, because over a lot of games that evens out. In the playoffs if a goaltender loses the game for you, there might not be enough games left to make up for it.
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04-21-2017, 07:26 AM
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#257
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
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[QUOTE=Roof-Daddy;6235104]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burner
Really? How so? What specifically did Sigalet do while coaching these guys to ruin them? If you know something please share it. I'd love to know.
Seems more likely that you (and many others) are just looking for someone to point the finger at, when more likely it's just a bunch of goalie who aren't good enough, or were never good enough to begin with.
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Nobody is arguing that the goaltending talent hasn't been the greatest but that doesn't change the fact that every single one performed significantly worse than their career averages or norms under Sigalet's tutelage. The role of a goaltending coach is to help get the best out of a goaltender. Is there seriously anyone here that can argue that he's done that? Behind every successful goaltender is a great coach that helped get the best out of him. The statements below are all you need to know about how important the position is and there's a pretty clear sign that this kind of support is not available for Flames goaltenders;
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Wild's Dubnyk credits Coyote goalie coach Burke for renewed confidence
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Quote:
Braden Holtby credits Edmonton Sports Psychologist (and Goalie Coach) John Stevenson - for much of his Vezina Trophy winning play.
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Cam Talbot;
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“I give Benny a lot of credit and he knows that… I wouldn’t be where I am today without his mentorship and his belief in me in those five years I was in the organization.”
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I don't take advocating for someone to be fired lightly. The guy probably has a family and mouths to feed just like everyone here and he could be the hardest working guy in the organization for all we know. All I know is that every single goaltender that joins this team plays worse and Sigalet is tied to that and if this continues it's going to likely cost Treliving his job one day. There's simply too much on the line to assume the poor play of every goaltender is an anomaly and that he's not part of the problem. Yes the team needs two new goaltenders again this offseason but unlike last season it's time to remove another variable rather than risk another season being wasted largely because of poor goaltending. It's not about pointing fingers, it's about looking for solutions to an ongoing problem.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 04-21-2017 at 07:37 AM.
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04-21-2017, 07:32 AM
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#258
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: SW Ontario
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Are we even sure Bishop is going to get a long term contract?
The last big goalie to become a free agent was Ryan Miller and he got a 3 year deal. He was older but had a similar reputation. Expensive goalies hardly ever hit free agency so its hard to know what he's going to get.
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04-21-2017, 07:40 AM
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#259
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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As for Sigalet, even if he's not a problem, I struggle to see why you wouldn't give some other guy a chance. Clearly the results he's getting are nothing special.
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04-21-2017, 07:43 AM
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#260
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Taking a while to get to 5000
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Who would step in for Sigalet? Labarbera?
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