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Old 07-11-2013, 12:58 PM   #521
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As I stated in my previous post, I shouldn't have used the word election. He was probably just appointed.

And yes, him being appointed as the head of a neighbourhood watch on private property is relevant to this case. We are looking specifically at what happened directly before the shooting to establish men's rea. It's just as relevant as the prosecutiong and the media using Zimmerman's racist beliefs to establish murder.
You seem to be giving a lot of weight to his "position" and its relevance to reality.

Going just by the numbers you have provided... 25 people (in a community of 250 homes) got together, watched a powerpoint, and decided this fellow George could be called a co-ordinator.

It sounds all official to say that he was "appointed" to watch over "private property", but in reality he had no more authority than any other regular person.

He was a regular person, carrying a gun, confronting someone who hadn't done anything wrong. Then he shot him.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:59 PM   #522
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Who?

For someone admittedly not following the details of the case, why are you suggesting what others are doing?

The shift in belief of Zimmerman being a white racist who shot in cold blood an innocent black child that the media made him out to be when it happened to what others believe now is because of witness testimony, expert analysis and the rest of the defender's attorney's case.
You're right maybe I shouldn't comment since I haven't followed the case as closely as others. I personally didn't think it was about race, to me it just seemed about a wanna be cop who failed got in way over his head and is now paying for it at least with his wallet and possibly his freedom.

Guilty or not guilty I won't be losing any sleep tonight.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:12 PM   #523
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The Problem is wider than that. The problem is that the law in Florida allows anyone to carry a gun. The only requirement is an easily attainable permit. Zimmerman had even been arrested in 2005 for assaulting a police officer. Zimmerman also had a restraining order filed agaisnt him for an incident of domestic violence.

You'd be surprised how many people in a state like Florida are carrying guns. I'm not even an anti-gun guy, but having a large segment of the population carrying concealed handguns a day to day basis is just a bad idea.

In Zimmerman's defence, he was advised to get a gun by authorities following a run in with a pit bull:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83O18H20120425
I wonder if those authorities gave it any thought as to what would likely happen to Zimmerman if he did shoot the pibull? I'm sure they would have been picking up his corpse too.

I also don't think race was the issue. Just my own 2 cents, but the way I imagine it going down was Zimmerman stalked the kid, then confronted him, the kid then became confrontational, Zimmerman pulled his gun, the kid chose to fight over flight and was more than Zimmerman could handle, so Zimmerman shot him.

I'm not a an expert or anything, but to me, that just sounds like the most plausible scenerio. In Zimmerman's head, it could have been self-defense even if he caused the chain of events, but what happens when the other person is also just defending themselves? Surely, someone has to be guilty... it wasn't just an accident (other than the system that allows these situations to occur so easily).
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:14 PM   #524
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Seriously everyone needs to read this over and over.

There is no conspiracy against black people. There is just evidence, analysis, and critical thinking, where there wasn't before.

If your critical thinking and analysis leads you to the same conclusion as before, that is 100% valid. But pulling the "omg media is biased, he shot a "kid", Zimmerman wanted to be a hero" and other garbage remarks just makes your position look extremely weak.
Maybe not right today, but the american gov't has a very rich history of needlessly screwing over their black population (ie - the war on drugs is basically the war on black people). I used to be really in to conspiracy theories when I was young, and the only one's that ever turned out to be true are how the american gov't screws over black people. The modern american black is forced to assume that their gov't is gunning for them, to do otherwise would be stupidly naive and ignorant of history.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:16 PM   #525
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You seem to be giving a lot of weight to his "position" and its relevance to reality.

Going just by the numbers you have provided... 25 people (in a community of 250 homes) got together, watched a powerpoint, and decided this fellow George could be called a co-ordinator.

It sounds all official to say that he was "appointed" to watch over "private property", but in reality he had no more authority than any other regular person.

He was a regular person, carrying a gun, confronting someone who hadn't done anything wrong. Then he shot him.
The watch is put together by a strata. The strata is elected, and they, in turn, handle day to day operation of the strata property, including authorizing a neighborhood watch. Even if the strata did not appoint him, you still have a legal right to form your own watch. You have a legal right to confront people you think might be suspicious within grounds. Whether it's moral to do so is another question.

I'm not "giving weight" to anything. I've posted interviews with other members of the watch, clearly stated they appointed Zimmerman as their coordinator. Wendy Dorival, the coordinator with the local police, has tesetified to the fact that Zimmerman was working with both the police and his community. She'd tried to recruit him for some kind of citizens on patrol program, but he said no:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...bourhood-watch

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Earlier in her testimony, Dorival said that Zimmerman told her that his homeowners association had asked him to lead efforts to establish a neighbourhood watch. She said she gave an hour-long presentation about the programme to about 25 residents from the development, after Zimmerman said he had distributed flyers to between 200 and 300 of the townhouses and apartments there.
You have a right to confront whomever you want on private property. Zimmerman also had a right to carry a gun.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:17 PM   #526
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He was a regular person, carrying a gun,
Legally.
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confronting someone who hadn't done anything wrong.
Again, legally.
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Then he shot him.
Well there's a pretty significant gap.

Did he attack Martin or was he walking away when Martin chased him down and attack him? That's not only a big oversight to just ignore, it's the entire trail.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:18 PM   #527
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I wonder if those authorities gave it any thought as to what would likely happen to Zimmerman if he did shoot the pibull? I'm sure they would have been picking up his corpse too.

I also don't think race was the issue. Just my own 2 cents, but the way I imagine it going down was Zimmerman stalked the kid, then confronted him, the kid then became confrontational, Zimmerman pulled his gun, the kid chose to fight over flight and was more than Zimmerman could handle, so Zimmerman shot him.

I'm not a an expert or anything, but to me, that just sounds like the most plausible scenerio. In Zimmerman's head, it could have been self-defense even if he caused the chain of events, but what happens when the other person is also just defending themselves? Surely, someone has to be guilty... it wasn't just an accident (other than the system that allows these situations to occur so easily).
I'd agree with most of that, except the part about when Zimmerman pulled the gun. We don't know that yet, and that's what's really at issue.

I don't want to come across like I'm purely defending Zimmerman. There has been a lot of jumping to conclusions by the media here.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:28 PM   #528
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Legally.

Again, legally.

Well there's a pretty significant gap.

Did he attack Martin or was he walking away when Martin chased him down and attack him? That's not only a big oversight to just ignore, it's the entire trail.
You could even argue that "confronting someone" is pure speculation at this point.

Zimmermans' story is:
1) He stopped chasing immediately after 911 told him not to. This is supported by the decreased breathing rate in the audio.
2) He took a few more steps forward to note the intersection/address.
3) He walked back to his truck, where TM confronted him.

Now the critical part of my mind is thinking that this is a bit too convenient. But I think it makes exactly as much sense as the other interpretation - that Zimmerman kept chasing, and then TM turned around to start the confrontation.

My only problem with the 2nd story is that TM is a high school athlete, while Zimmerman is out of shape. In no world does a high school athlete not lose someone like Zimmerman in the first 10 seconds of a chase (which, is probably what happened between 1 and 2 in the Zimmerman story).

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He was a regular person, carrying a gun, confronting someone who hadn't done anything wrong. Then he shot him.
Wow. Quite the jump between "confronting" and "then he shot him". And as I noted, even the confronting part at the moment is speculation and based on the evidence and testimony at the trial.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:34 PM   #529
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This should be a manslaughter case but the stupid prosecutors are bent on a murder charge, whether he's found guilty or not guilty and both sides will freak out.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:35 PM   #530
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Bull####. You can't honestly believe that a confrontation that happened moments earlier had no bearing on the event.

Come on man.
The comfrontation moments before becomes irrelevant if Zimmerman was no longer in pursuit and was walking back to his car. From what I've seen on the trial. Martin initiated and jumped Zimmerman after Zimmerman had stopped his pursuit.

At that point the prior events became irrelevant in the self defense argument. If the jury reaches the conclusion that Martin jumped Zimmerman, forced him to the ground and pinned him and inflected the back of the head and other wounds that are on record, then its easy for the jury to agree with the defense.

The court can't be political and force a verdict to defuse racial tensions. The facts right now and the forensic evidence seem to really favor the defense. The events leading up to the death if in fact the witnesses have corroborated that Zimmerman was no longer in pursuit of Martin are irrelevant.

If someone chases you down and alley in a lets say mugging attempt, breaks off the pursuit, then you hunt him down and jump him and put him into jeopardy and he kills you, they are probably going to let him off with self defense, almost strictly because the situation no longer had you in jeopardy.

You became at that point a vigilante.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but the combination of the prosecution doing a terrible job, and the facts in the case. Zimmerman is probably going to walk.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:40 PM   #531
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I also don't think race was the issue. Just my own 2 cents, but the way I imagine it going down was Zimmerman stalked the kid, then confronted him, the kid then became confrontational, Zimmerman pulled his gun, the kid chose to fight over flight and was more than Zimmerman could handle, so Zimmerman shot him.

I'm not a an expert or anything, but to me, that just sounds like the most plausible scenerio. In Zimmerman's head, it could have been self-defense even if he caused the chain of events, but what happens when the other person is also just defending themselves? Surely, someone has to be guilty... it wasn't just an accident (other than the system that allows these situations to occur so easily).
Except that's not the chain of events according to the testimony on hand.

At some point before the shooting Zimmerman disenged. He didn't waive the gun in the kids face. He wasn't in pursuit of Martin. Then the forensics states that Martin had pinned down Zimmerman who had at this point sustained wounds to the back of his head and face. Probably from a younger stronger Martin beating him into the pavement. Then the gun came into play.

Your string of events is missing what's being discussed in court.

Zimmerman wasn't in pursuit at the time that he was jumped by Martin. He was forced into a compromised position, was assaulted and then shot the kid.

Now I might have a misunderstanding of the testimony, I'm not watching 24 hours a day.

But sadly it sounds like its manslaughter at the most. Self defense at the least and a likely acquittal thanks to an overzealous prosecutor blinded by the glare of court T.V.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:45 PM   #532
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I just hope we don't get a hung jury. Doing this #### over again? No thanks.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:19 PM   #533
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I'd agree with most of that, except the part about when Zimmerman pulled the gun. We don't know that yet, and that's what's really at issue.

I don't want to come across like I'm purely defending Zimmerman. There has been a lot of jumping to conclusions by the media here.
That's true and if I was on the jury, that would be something I would have to consider.

I admit that my personal bias is at play here. I think if I were on a jury, I would have no problem putting it aside, but as an univested observer, I can't help but think that "I know the type" when it comes to Zimmerman.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:22 PM   #534
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It will be a travesty if this loser cop wannabe gets set free. If that was a white kid walking, this wouldn't have happened. Get this loser racist scumbag off the street.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:46 PM   #535
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It will be a travesty if this loser cop wannabe gets set free. If that was a white kid walking, this wouldn't have happened. Get this loser racist scumbag off the street.
The court needs to be color blind.

Do you have anything that indicates that Zimmerman is racist. There's been nothing indicated during the trial in terms of evidence.

You don't know what your talking about.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:55 PM   #536
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It will be a travesty if this loser cop wannabe gets set free. If that was a white kid walking, this wouldn't have happened. Get this loser racist scumbag off the street.
I don't know what Zimmerman's motivations were, possibly racism, but he's not white.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:59 PM   #537
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Prosecution comes off it's 2nd degree murder only and asked judge to consider manslaughter and 3rd degree felony murder(child abuse resulting in death)

Judge just told Jurors they can convict him of manslaughter or 2nd degree murder...defense not happy.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:01 PM   #538
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I don't know what Zimmerman's motivations were, possibly racism, but he's not white.
Hispanics/Blacks = Oil/Water
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:11 PM   #539
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I don't know what Zimmerman's motivations were, possibly racism, but he's not white.
The prosecution said nothing about Zimmerman being racist. In the courtroom, it hasn't come up.

However, they do believe Zimmerman is against punks.

And Trayvon Martin was evidently against "creepy-assed crackers," which his girlfriend doesn't think is a racist term.

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Old 07-11-2013, 06:44 PM   #540
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Oops pardon me seems like I was mistaken. He's not racist he's just a vigilante nut case cop wannabe scumbag loser. Either way, I hope they lock him up for a very long time.
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