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Old 10-20-2014, 05:44 PM   #21
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I was under the impression there are several caveats on the CHL scholarship. Some of them being some carefully crafted wording with respect to where a player can go to school relative to where he lives and plays, and there is also a time period they have to cash in - so if you go over to Europe for a couple of season you could be out of luck
I am not certain on residency rules, though that makes some sense. But you are certainly correct on some of the expiry rules. They have to be used within two years of leaving the league, and any player who plays AHL, NHL or top-level Europe forfeits their scholarship. They can play one year in a lower level league, however. If there is one area where improvements are needed, it is scholarship eligibility.
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:46 PM   #22
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The profitability of the teams means nothing in terms of what the players make or don't make.

The fact is that the players willingly signed these contracts, and a lot of them on the advice of family members or agents or whatever.

This lawsuit probably doesn't go far.
Most of the kids are drafted at 14 (WHL) or 15 (QMJHL, OHL) and sign by age 15. It is very unlikely that any but those expected to be top prospects have agents at that point. Particularly since that would void NCAA eligiblity.
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:55 PM   #23
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Pay them all minimum wage, then have them pay room and board, equipment costs, travel to games, practice time, and pay for university themselves. Problem solved.

They deserve minimum wage. And when your employer sends you out of town for work, they pay for your r/b and travel. I don't know anyone outside of independent contractors that foot their own travel/room/board. I would argue these athletes are NOT independent contractors, but that will be for the courts to determine.

I would get rid of the scholarship program, but only because it's stipulations make it challenging to collect on and it's used as leverage against minimum wage. It also is likely used a tactic to lower the tax rates of the CHL teams (I know you can endow a scholarship in the states and write it off in your taxes, I assume a similar law exists in Canada).

If the kids are making 600/wk+ instead of 50, they could afford university if that makes sense for their career after they finish with junior hockey.

I hope the kids win this one.
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:05 PM   #24
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I hope the kids win this one.
You're kidding yourself if you think this is about the kids. This is lawyers and a union looking to get rich off the backs of those kids. Which is ironic given the complaints in the suit.
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:36 PM   #25
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They deserve minimum wage. And when your employer sends you out of town for work, they pay for your r/b and travel. I don't know anyone outside of independent contractors that foot their own travel/room/board. I would argue these athletes are NOT independent contractors, but that will be for the courts to determine.

I would get rid of the scholarship program, but only because it's stipulations make it challenging to collect on and it's used as leverage against minimum wage. It also is likely used a tactic to lower the tax rates of the CHL teams (I know you can endow a scholarship in the states and write it off in your taxes, I assume a similar law exists in Canada).

If the kids are making 600/wk+ instead of 50, they could afford university if that makes sense for their career after they finish with junior hockey.

I hope the kids win this one.
They are receiving free room and board, free education and opportunity for training at the highest level plus a monthly stipend for things that aren't covered. If I provide these things to my employee's they are considered taxable benefits and the employee's pay is reflected in lower overall salary to cover these items. Again I have no problem paying them minimum wage but they should then be taxed for all items the same as the rest of the workforce in Canada and the US. There are way more tax implications to this than are being discussed, i.e. benefits for health and dental which are coming directly from the owners with NO tax issues for the players.

Every player and their families understand what they are getting into in regards to the CHL. If they wished to be paid as employees then they should also be treated as employees.
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:45 PM   #26
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Every player and their families understand what they are getting into in regards to the CHL. If they wished to be paid as employees then they should also be treated as employees.
If as employees they had freedom of movement where they could go to where the pay was better, I might agree but right now the CHL has complete control of the players and their future and where they play with almost no rights for the players.
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:53 PM   #27
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If as employees they had freedom of movement where they could go to where the pay was better, I might agree but right now the CHL has complete control of the players and their future and where they play with almost no rights for the players.
If by that you mean that the players can't choose which CHL team to play for, you're right. But they can choose to play in a Tier 2 league (as some do, to preserve their NCAA eligibility), or for that matter, not to play hockey at all.

As for the players' future, not only does the CHL not control that, it doesn't even decide whether they have a future.

I'd seriously like to see someone add up the cash value of the scholarships, medical benefits, and other perks provided to CHL players, and see how that compares with minimum wage for the actual hours worked.
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:04 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
If as employees they had freedom of movement where they could go to where the pay was better, I might agree but right now the CHL has complete control of the players and their future and where they play with almost no rights for the players.

These kids can forego playing in CHL alltogether and go a variety of different routes if they so choose. No one is forcing them to sign with any particular team/league, so that argument simply doesn't exist.

Edit:.what jay said above.^^
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:12 PM   #29
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If by that you mean that the players can't choose which CHL team to play for, you're right. But they can choose to play in a Tier 2 league (as some do, to preserve their NCAA eligibility), or for that matter, not to play hockey at all.

As for the players' future, not only does the CHL not control that, it doesn't even decide whether they have a future.

I'd seriously like to see someone add up the cash value of the scholarships, medical benefits, and other perks provided to CHL players, and see how that compares with minimum wage for the actual hours worked.
Choosing the NCAA route over Major Junior is just replacing one servitude for another. I don't think either system is there strictly for the players benefit as they like to portray.

As for the players future, they don't make trouble or they end up sitting or sent down to Junior A. Of course these leagues have some control over the players future.

As has been said there is probably a big difference in the profitability of CHL teams. Some are probably making a killing and it's rumoured that some pay players under the table while other teams are hanging on.
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Old 10-20-2014, 09:54 PM   #30
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As a fan I like the system we have, but morality wise it makes me uncomfortable.

I find it is actually better at the lower leagues where there is still some type of choice to who your employer is. The entire concepts of drafts and teams owning a player's rights just does not sit well with me. I do not see other industries with the same type of system. Though it would be funny if accountants were drafted. "Sorry sir, your rights are owned by an accounting firm in Edmonton. If you want to practice accounting elsewhere you are free to go to another country, or you could take a job as an admin assistant."

But really who am I to complain that much, I locked myself into my current job with a golden handcuffs deal. But could still leave if I wanted to. And leaving my job would not have to mean moving to a different part of the world or settling for a greatly reduced quality of work and salary.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:19 PM   #31
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Pay minimum wage? So less than grocery store clerks or McDonalds workers? They do get free room and board, because they're minors who are living where the team that drafted them is, otherwise they'd live at home. And if they paid for their own equipment, unlike minimum wage workers, they'd be actually being paid less than minimum wage.

I don't disagree that the lawsuit has very little chance of success (and I'm a lawyer) but it's not all beer and skittles for these kids. Imagine being traded to Prince George.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:27 PM   #32
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I'm family friends with Mike Moore, GM of the Hitmen, and he says the Hitmen are nothing but profit for the Flames.
I doubt he would be too happy with a friend all but corroborating the accusations of a lawsuit against his organization in a public forum, by quoting his statements without evidence.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:50 PM   #33
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Interesting, I bet the benefit of the CHL varies widely depending on the players, if they go to school great, if it fits for them, if they are a star it's a "training ground" for the opportunity to make NHL fortunes. What happens to the guy who doesn't go to school, maybe he's a bit of a goon and gets hurt...
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:06 PM   #34
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none of the points about wages, living conditions, whether or not you have an agent at 14 or not (who's fault is that...?) or may get traded to Prince George so boo hoo, adequately address the fact that these kids make a decision to play hockey in the CHL.

They don't have to if they don't want to. The end.
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:29 PM   #35
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none of the points about wages, living conditions, whether or not you have an agent at 14 or not (who's fault is that...?) or may get traded to Prince George so boo hoo, adequately address the fact that these kids make a decision to play hockey in the CHL.

They don't have to if they don't want to. The end.
Couldn't you say the same thing about anyone working in a job that pays below minimum wage? If you agree that it's a good thing to have a minimum wage, then that argument is invalid.
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:48 PM   #36
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I am curious if the players themselves would prefer the status quo as opposed to spending their time working a minimum wage job. I am also curious as to how many CHL teams could afford paying minimum wage without folding. Does anyone know how much of the education component is paid by teams themselves and how much is paid by fund-raisers like 50/50 sales, if any at all?
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:05 AM   #37
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On the news they say there was a past court decision that held the kids were employees, not contractors.

Just because you agree to play doesn't mean the league doesn't have to meet some minimum requirements. And if a team is selling merchandise based on a kid's name I'd think they should get something as well.
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Old 10-21-2014, 08:58 AM   #38
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These kids can forego playing in CHL alltogether and go a variety of different routes if they so choose. No one is forcing them to sign with any particular team/league, so that argument simply doesn't exist.
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none of the points about wages, living conditions, whether or not you have an agent at 14 or not (who's fault is that...?) or may get traded to Prince George so boo hoo, adequately address the fact that these kids make a decision to play hockey in the CHL.

They don't have to if they don't want to. The end.
You can say that about any illegal or immoral work regime. The fact people do something voluntarily doesn't make it right, unless you're a dogmatic libertarian. If my 7-year-old son voluntarily decided to scrub out the grease pits at McDonalds every day in exchange for one Happy Meal toy a week, should the law step back and say 'hey, it's his decision.' Why have any workplace laws or regulations at all if a voluntary contract trumps everything?

The CHL is a disgrace. It's a for-profit sports league featuring bare-knuckled boxing, that exists only for the entertainment of beer-swilling locals, where the talent/employees are unpaid minors. I can't think of anything similar in any first-world country. At least college athletes are adults.
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Old 10-21-2014, 09:06 AM   #39
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Let me guess, CliffFletcher, you got cut by a CHL team and still blame them for crushing your NHL dream?
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Old 10-21-2014, 09:25 AM   #40
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I just don't think the CHL is special. It's a business that should be run like any other. Why shouldn't a CHL franchise have to operate under the same conditions McDonald's operates under?
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