Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 01-31-2017, 12:16 PM   #2041
jeffporfirio
Scoring Winger
 
jeffporfirio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Exp:
Default

I have very little to add to this thread except that being from a Banana-Republic (aka south of Mexico), I've seen gross incompetence personified elected as president before.

The country I come from had 4 consecutive far right governments, and after 20 years of the "same-ol-thing" (ie no change for the vast majorities), the populace gave a bumbling madman a chance, and now the country has gone back at least 25 years.

The country, it doesn't matter... Guatemala just elected a guy that used to play a clown on TV, El Salvador elected a primary school teacher turned armed guerilla, Venezuela elected a Bus Driver....Nothing against clowns, bus drivers or teachers turned guerillas, but all three personify gross incompetence as presidents.

I thank God every night, we have the privilege to live in this country at this time.

Last edited by jeffporfirio; 01-31-2017 at 12:18 PM.
jeffporfirio is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:17 PM   #2042
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
Kristol started the Weekly Standard, dude.
Yes, he did. Kristol is still setting the standard that all conservative intellectual are trying to attain are they not? All those wannabes are chasing the legacy of Kristol (more Irving than Bill) and want to be in that class. Or are you not going to agree with that?
Lanny_McDonald is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:18 PM   #2043
ResAlien
Lifetime In Suspension
 
ResAlien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Exp:
Default

It feels like the more conservative voices want to point to Trump's election as being a massive swing of protest votes against liberals because then they don't have to take responsibility for being the party that nominated him and set him loose upon the US.

Where were these anti liberal protest votes during the nomination process? I can't imagine people were turning out in droves to vote Trump in Republican primaries to protest liberals were they? That seems downright silly.
ResAlien is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to ResAlien For This Useful Post:
Old 01-31-2017, 12:18 PM   #2044
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
Yes, he did. Kristol is still setting the standard that all conservative intellectual are trying to attain are they not? All those wannabes are chasing the legacy of Kristol (more Irving than Bill) and want to be in that class. Or are you not going to agree with that?
Do you know who started the National Review?
peter12 is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:18 PM   #2045
Puppet Guy
Franchise Player
 
Puppet Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: the dark side of Sesame Street
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffporfirio View Post
I have very little to add to this thread except that being from a Banana-Republic (aka south of Mexico), I've seen gross incompetence personified elected as president before.

The country I come from had 4 consecutive far right governments, and after 20 years of the "same-ol-thing" (ie no change for the vast majorities), the populace gave a bumbling madman a chance, and now the country has gone back at least 25 years.

The country, it doesn't matter... Guatemala just elected a guy that used to play a clown on TV, El Salvador elected a primary school teacher turned armed guerilla, Venezuela elected a Bus Driver....Nothing against clowns, bus drivers or teachers turned guerillas, but all three personify gross incompetence as presidents.
__________________
"If Javex is your muse…then dive in buddy"

- Surferguy
Puppet Guy is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Puppet Guy For This Useful Post:
Old 01-31-2017, 12:20 PM   #2046
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
People with a post-secondary education who favored Clinton by 9 points. And that happens to be the largest lead a Democratic Presidential candidate has had in that category since they began asking that question in exit polls.

Non-college educated whites certainly didn't "flock to Obama in droves". Romney led by 25 points in that category and McCain led by about 20. Other than Mondale in '84 and Kerry in '04, Obama's share of the non-college educated white vote in '08 and '12 were the two poorest performances by a Democratic Presidential candidate with that demographic since the 1970s.

Like it or not, education was the biggest demographic driver behind this election, with race coming in a close second. To ignore that is to ignore reality.
It comes back to the economy. Trump offered hope to working class whites while Hilary ignored them. The people who didn't like either voted 2:1 for trump.

It wasn't bathroom laws or casual racism. It's the economy, stupid
GGG is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:21 PM   #2047
AltaGuy
AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
 
AltaGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
Exp:
Default

The bizarre moralizing about the left and elites needing to listen better to the common (white) man and support his need to go Trump is extra silly given that:

1. We're really talking about a miniscule number of swing voters in rust-belt states, many of which Trump won by such small margins that it amounts to a rounding error easily corrected by running a better candidate than Clinton.

2. Trump won by a tiny margin in those rust-belt states while losing the popular vote by 3 million, and with the most bizarre anti-factual social media support (read: lies) ever drummed up in a presidential election.

Yeah, Trump won. But really, Texas is getting closer and closer to flipping. Once that happens, the Republicans may never win another presidential election unless they realize the rural white vote is ultimately a losing bet in presidential elections.
AltaGuy is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to AltaGuy For This Useful Post:
Old 01-31-2017, 12:22 PM   #2048
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
Do you know who started the National Review?
Buckley. What's your point? It is debateable if Buckley would even be a conservative in this world. That's how far the centerline has shifted.
Lanny_McDonald is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:22 PM   #2049
nik-
Franchise Player
 
nik-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
It comes back to the economy. Trump offered hope to working class whites while Hilary ignored them. The people who didn't like either voted 2:1 for trump.

It wasn't bathroom laws or casual racism. It's the economy, stupid
"Factory worker whose job doesn't exist anymore" is the new "soccer mom"

Swing demographics!
nik- is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:22 PM   #2050
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaGuy View Post
The bizarre moralizing about the left and elites needing to listen better to the common man and support his need to go Trump is extra silly given that:

1. We're really talking about a miniscule number of swing voters in rust-belt states, many of which Trump won by such small margins that it amounts to a rounding error easily corrected by running a better candidate than Clinton.

2. Trump won by a tiny margin in those rust-belt states while losing the popular vote by 3 million, and with the most bizarre anti-factual social media support (read: lies) ever drummed up in a presidential election.

Yeah, Trump won. But really, Texas is getting closer and closer to flipping. Once that happens, the Republicans may never win another presidential election unless they realize the rural white vote is ultimately a losing bet in presidential elections.
The Democrats were destroyed in the last election. Destroyed. I think the Republicans feel pretty good about their chances moving forward.
peter12 is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:23 PM   #2051
Drak
First Line Centre
 
Drak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Victoria, BC
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
It comes back to the economy. Trump offered hope to working class whites while Hilary ignored them. The people who didn't like either voted 2:1 for trump.

It wasn't bathroom laws or casual racism. It's the economy, stupid
I didn't follow the election super closely, but how did Hillary ignore the working class? In her speeches I heard her talk about helping the middle class. I think here's more to this than just jobs.
Drak is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:23 PM   #2052
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
Buckley. What's your point? It is debateable if Buckley would even be a conservative in this world. That's how far the centerline has shifted.
I just don't know why you started going off on the Kristols when I posted an article from Buckley's magazine.

Bill Kristol, btw, is probably the most stalwart "Never Trumper" out there.
peter12 is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:23 PM   #2053
REDVAN
Franchise Player
 
REDVAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
Ah, the militant left.

I'm over the excuse.

If it's easier for people to believe that centrists, moderates, casual liberals and conservatives alike were all so put off by the controlling ways of the oogey boogey safe spacers that they gave up any guise of self-determination and spine and voted for a man as questionable and reliant on whim as Trump, then so be it.

Trump won not as some "reject vote" of the left, or protest vote, he won because people wanted him to win.

Please, please stop denying this simple and basic fact. It's not a left v right issue, it's not "the left's fault," it's the fault of every single person who voted for Trump. Can you lay a little blame on Democrats for running a weak candidate? Sure, but this has absolutely nothing to do with "the left" and it's a boring and sad excuse to say so.

Own your decision, or admit you're thin skinned and have the resolve of a wet paper bag. Those are the options. "Blame the other side for making you do it" isn't one. I make my decisions and I'm not always proud of them, but I don't blame others for the making.

Voting because you want to stick it to someone who hurt your feelings is embarrassing. Let's end the reliance of this excuse already.
I generally agree with what you're saying here, I just don't think it's fair to say the left didn't push anyone to vote for Trump. Nor that anyone who was pushed that way did so on a whim. I think a LOT of Trump voters thought long and hard about voting or not.

I don't think anyone who voted is as think skinned as you're assuming, most people made their decision and held their nose and voted for Trump because they wanted to exercise their right to vote and chose him over the other candidates.

It's not Trump's fault he was the least terrible candidate, even if he was still terrible. Or is it...?
__________________
REDVAN!
REDVAN is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:25 PM   #2054
Flash Walken
Lifetime Suspension
 
Flash Walken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
The Democrats were destroyed in the last election. Destroyed. I think the Republicans feel pretty good about their chances moving forward.
I don't think the demographic shift will happen quickly enough to outpace the gerrymandering that has already taken place and relative abandonment of the democratic base.

The party can't lurch itself away from the tired old leadership to take advantage of this groundswelling support.

Dime's worth of difference.
Flash Walken is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Flash Walken For This Useful Post:
Old 01-31-2017, 12:27 PM   #2055
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
I don't think the demographic shift will happen quickly enough to outpace the gerrymandering that has already taken place and relative abandonment of the democratic base.

The party can't lurch itself away from the tired old leadership to take advantage of this groundswelling support.

Dime's worth of difference.
Even the most partisan analysis shows that the Republicans only gain a net of 6-7 seats from gerrymandering. Not significant.
peter12 is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:28 PM   #2056
AltaGuy
AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
 
AltaGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
The Democrats were destroyed in the last election. Destroyed. I think the Republicans feel pretty good about their chances moving forward.
Yes, I'm aware that gerrymandering has made it appear as if support for the democrats is approaching its lowest point ever. Doesn't help the electoral college math should Texas flip. Nor does it change the fact that a considerable majority of the US continues to vote Democrat in presidential elections.
AltaGuy is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AltaGuy For This Useful Post:
Old 01-31-2017, 12:31 PM   #2057
opendoor
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
This isn't a significant departure from what I just said.
I guess I just don't get your point then. Particularly when it relies on complete falsehoods like the notion that white working class voters went for Obama in droves.
opendoor is offline  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:33 PM   #2058
Street Pharmacist
Franchise Player
 
Street Pharmacist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Salmon with Arms
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
Nassim Nicholas Taleb's piece "The Intellectual Yet Idiot" summed it up pretty good for me.
You love narrative but hate data. You think he "sums it up nicely" because it fits the narrative you like, which is ironic considering the piece you just posted.

In fact, the single largest factor in predicting vote share was not income (not buy a lot actually), not race (though there's plenty of evidence of it's role, but it was education

The lower educated, the more likely to vote Trump, especially in swing states. The purge piece of data that destroys the "these poor folk are just frustrated no one was helping them" narrative was the undecided swings based on news events. The Comey letter moved polls with sharply in Trump's favour, and we all know how that played out.

On the end there's literally no data to support your narrative, but it sounds good, so you claim others are ignoring it.
Street Pharmacist is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Street Pharmacist For This Useful Post:
Old 01-31-2017, 12:34 PM   #2059
Senator Clay Davis
Franchise Player
 
Senator Clay Davis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland State House, Annapolis
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
Even the most partisan analysis shows that the Republicans only gain a net of 6-7 seats from gerrymandering. Not significant.
I'm not sure many comments have begged a "source?" more than this one.
__________________
"Think I'm gonna be the scapegoat for the whole damn machine? Sheeee......."
Senator Clay Davis is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Senator Clay Davis For This Useful Post:
Old 01-31-2017, 12:35 PM   #2060
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaGuy View Post
Yes, I'm aware that gerrymandering has made it appear as if support for the democrats is approaching its lowest point ever. Doesn't help the electoral college math should Texas flip. Nor does it change the fact that a considerable majority of the US continues to vote Democrat in presidential elections.
Gerrymandering causes significant institutional hurdles, but is not a sufficienct factor to sway entire elections.


Quote:
History shows that grass-roots partisan mobilization can overcome gerrymandering. In 2006, when gerrymandering was pretty strong, Democrats enjoyed a watershed in the midterm elections. And in 2010, the districts were pretty locked in when Republicans retook control of Congress, as they did in 1994.
peter12 is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
making snl great again , soviet murica? , trade wars , trumpcare = doa , utterly insane pressers

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:21 AM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021