Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[4X4]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ah yes, spoken from in front of your computer in a city and county where thankfully race is a minor issue. Unfortunately that is not the case where this incident took place, not even close. It's hilarious how people who live in a completely different society in terms of race relations pretend as if they understand the role race plays on a day to day basis.

Dude. The point I made was that Zimmerman would have harassed any young person in a hoodie, not just a black kid. But yeah, I'm just so sheltered, unlike your worldly self, I'd have no idea about that. Because I spent 32 of my 34 years in Canada, I just simply have no comprehension of what happened in this trial. Apparently I need to move to New York and be a lawyer to be able to grasp this situation just like you, eh? No history book, or Hollywood movie, or the year and a half I spent living in the most racist country ever could possibly give me an inkling into this unbelievably complex situation. There's simply no way that Zimmerman was out to find the young punks that were doing B&Es in his community, he was out looking for black punks.
Hey! There's a young guy in a hoodie acting suspicious! I should kill him! No, wait, he's white. He's probably just visiting his parents. Oh! There's a black kid! Get em!

Please, Valo. Teach me more about this thing you call "The World". And for the record, I love your "Ah, yes" opening, and the computer reference. You've hit peter12 levels of dooshy pretentiousness. Perhaps you can teach me a bit about that while you're at it.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ah yes, spoken from in front of your computer in a city and country where thankfully race is a minor issue. Unfortunately that is not the case where this incident took place, not even close. It's hilarious how people who live in a completely different society in terms of race relations pretend as if they understand the role race plays on a day to day basis.

So because the USA and especially the southern states has a history of racial issues - this case must also be about race? How do you know what Zimmerman was thinking? I know there are a few blow hards and some media outlets that want you to think it's about race - but that still doesn't mean it's about race.

You don't know what Zimmerman was thinking - even if he says it wasn't about race - he could be lying - so what else do we have to go on? Let's look at some reality and evidence shall we.

1. His 'hood had been the scene of a rash of break ends/home invasions
2. Because of this a neighbourhood watch was assembled - zimmerman being top 'hood cop.
3. The job of said neighbourhood watch is to ..... wait for it watch for suspicious activity/people
4. Martin was an unfamiliar face and was said to be causally walking in the rain between houses and "looking" into them.

Right here we have established why Zimmerman would notice Martin - there are many reasons other than race. More evidence

When he called the police non emergency line - Zimmerman only referred to race when asked
Zimmerman was also somewhat encouraged to keep eye on Martin when he was asked not to lose sight of him.

Zimmerman himself
- he is of mixed race, including African American
- The FBI investigate his background - found no evidence of race

"George Zimmerman was one of the few non-black people that helped protest the beating of a black homeless man by the son of a Sanford police officer that was left unpunished."


The evidence and the history point in the opposite direction.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Dude. The point I made was that Zimmerman would have harassed any young person in a hoodie, not just a black kid. But yeah, I'm just so sheltered, unlike your worldly self, I'd have no idea about that. Because I spent 32 of my 34 years in Canada, I just simply have no comprehension of what happened in this trial. Apparently I need to move to New York and be a lawyer to be able to grasp this situation just like you, eh? No history book, or Hollywood movie, or the year and a half I spent living in the most racist country ever could possibly give me an inkling into this unbelievably complex situation. There's simply no way that Zimmerman was out to find the young punks that were doing B&Es in his community, he was out looking for black punks.
Hey! There's a young guy in a hoodie acting suspicious! I should kill him! No, wait, he's white. He's probably just visiting his parents. Oh! There's a black kid! Get em!

Please, Valo. Teach me more about this thing you call "The World". And for the record, I love your "Ah, yes" opening, and the computer reference. You've hit peter12 levels of dooshy pretentiousness. Perhaps you can teach me a bit about that while you're at it.

Nm, better addressed in my reply below.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

So because the USA and especially the southern states has a history of racial issues - this case must also be about race? How do you know what Zimmerman was thinking? I know there are a few blow hards and some media outlets that want you to think it's about race - but that still doesn't mean it's about race.

You don't know what Zimmerman was thinking - even if he says it wasn't about race - he could be lying - so what else do we have to go on? Let's look at some reality and evidence shall we.

1. His 'hood had been the scene of a rash of break ends/home invasions
2. Because of this a neighbourhood watch was assembled - zimmerman being top 'hood cop.
3. The job of said neighbourhood watch is to ..... wait for it watch for suspicious activity/people
4. Martin was an unfamiliar face and was said to be causally walking in the rain between houses and "looking" into them.

Right here we have established why Zimmerman would notice Martin - there are many reasons other than race. More evidence

When he called the police non emergency line - Zimmerman only referred to race when asked
Zimmerman was also somewhat encouraged to keep eye on Martin when he was asked not to lose sight of him.

Zimmerman himself
- he is of mixed race, including African American
- The FBI investigate his background - found no evidence of race

"George Zimmerman was one of the few non-black people that helped protest the beating of a black homeless man by the son of a Sanford police officer that was left unpunished."


The evidence and the history point in the opposite direction.

You're right, I don't know what he was thinking, but I'm inclined to think that if it was a white kid walking through the neighborhood he wouldn't have reacted the same way. I might be wrong, but the history of these types of cases and my personal experience leads me to believe that to be the case.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by valo403

You're right, I don't know what he was thinking, but I'm inclined to think that if it was a white kid walking through the neighborhood he wouldn't have reacted the same way. I might be wrong, but the history of these types of cases and my personal experience leads me to believe that to be the case.

You're not wrong. People who think race had nothing to do with this are living in a fantasy world.

[missdpuck]

The media did make it a racial issue, of course.

But since I live in South Florida but spend lots of time in Central Florida, I can give a little info.

I can't remember hearing one conversation about this incident that didn't involve race.

If the press started it, the common folk were sure good at spreading it around.

Jeez.

If a black person unknown to me referred to me as a "cracker", I would feel threatened until I got an explanation, as it is sometimes just a stupid word for "white person".
I have black friends who call me "cracker".

Sanford has a large black population.

It's obvious that the media, and mostly Martin's side, played the race card.

The tragic Amodou Diallo (1999 in the Bronx) shooting got worldwide press in good part because he was black.

The Seth Adams case is virtually unknown outside of Florida as there is no race card to be played.

[valo403]

Article on the hurdles a federal case would face:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticl...3462&thepage=2

You need to sign up to read the whole thing, but here's the gist:

Now that the trial is over, Justice Department lawyers will start reviewing the evidence to determine whether federal charges are appropriate. “It’s important for the department to do a vigorous investigation, and who knows what will come out,” said William Yeomans, a former acting assistant attorney general now a professor at American University Washington College of Law. “There may be holes that can be filled in once the FBI joins in.”
Yeomans and other former government prosecutors said Tuesday that federal charges are possible under the new Matthew Shepard hate crimes law, but that the Justice Department would have several difficult hurdles to overcome, especially considering the evidence that has come out so far in the case.
“The big hurdle is establishing the defendant’s state of mind and showing he acted with racial motivation,” Yeomans said. “It’s not impossible,” but “the evidence developed so far would make that difficult.”

While I think Zimmerman acted partially upon race, I don't think that was his only basis and I don't think there's enough evidence to support a federal case. I'd be surprised to see one brought.

[missdpuck]

Somebody put a link up for this. I can't get it to work.

Stevie Wonder has just announced (well, on Sunday) he is boycotting the entire state of Florida because of the Zimmerman verdict. Does he even know who Seth Adams was? I doubt it.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

So because the USA and especially the southern states has a history of racial issues - this case must also be about race? How do you know what Zimmerman was thinking? I know there are a few blow hards and some media outlets that want you to think it's about race - but that still doesn't mean it's about race.

You don't know what Zimmerman was thinking - even if he says it wasn't about race - he could be lying - so what else do we have to go on? Let's look at some reality and evidence shall we.

1. His 'hood had been the scene of a rash of break ends/home invasions
2. Because of this a neighbourhood watch was assembled - zimmerman being top 'hood cop.
3. The job of said neighbourhood watch is to ..... wait for it watch for suspicious activity/people
4. Martin was an unfamiliar face and was said to be causally walking in the rain between houses and "looking" into them.

Right here we have established why Zimmerman would notice Martin - there are many reasons other than race. More evidence

When he called the police non emergency line - Zimmerman only referred to race when asked
Zimmerman was also somewhat encouraged to keep eye on Martin when he was asked not to lose sight of him.

Zimmerman himself
- he is of mixed race, including African American
- The FBI investigate his background - found no evidence of race

"George Zimmerman was one of the few non-black people that helped protest the beating of a black homeless man by the son of a Sanford police officer that was left unpunished."


The evidence and the history point in the opposite direction.

In testimony to the FBI, Detective Sorino, aside from giving an opinion that race probably wasn't a factor in Zimmerman's decision-making that night, said five burglaries in the neighbourhood in the prior year and a half were linked to a gang called the "Goons" who typically wore hoodies.

Detective Sorino felt that was reason enough for a neighbourhood watch captain to be suspicious of someone in a hoody wandering around in the rain late at night.

Sorino's comments to the FBI are here:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/serino-fbi-report

Interestingly, in his testimony to the FBI, Sorino says he would have preferred Zimmerman stayed in his vehicle waiting for law enforcement OR, second option, go up to Martin and "identified himself as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern."

As well, the one juror who has spoken was asked directly if race was an issue in deliberations among the six of them - she said none of them brought up race as relevent topic to the facts under consideration.

Zimmerman mentored two black children earlier in his life and a black woman testified on his behalf at the trial.

Black America probably has plenty of other examples of racial profiling in the country to promote their justifiable cause. Why their leaders would be latching onto this very tenuous case to further their cause is both odd and starting to look painfully ridiculous.

When a black President and a black Attorney General quietly let a call for a Federal hate crime probe die a natural, deserved death in the coming months, that should be pretty telling.

Cowperson

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by valo403

You're right, I don't know what he was thinking, but I'm inclined to think that if it was a white kid walking through the neighborhood he wouldn't have reacted the same way. I might be wrong, but the history of these types of cases and my personal experience leads me to believe that to be the case.

How do you know that?

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

How do you know that?

Because the evidence in the case clearly indicates that Black/Hispanic neighborhood watch representatives only go after suspicious hooded black teenagers, not white teenagers.

This Brown on Black crime makes me sick.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by nik-

You're not wrong. People who think race had nothing to do with this are living in a fantasy world.

Nope just going off evidence and history.

Case in point.

Zimmerman notices someone suspicious....

calls the non emergency line

does not mention race until asked....

and when asked answers with I "THINK" he's black

it appears he wasn't entirely sure....

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Zimmerman mentored two black children earlier in his life and a black woman testified on his behalf at the trial.

The "But I have black/gay/latino friends!" argument. Positive interaction in the past doesn't eliminate a likely tendency to profile.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by nik-

The "But I have black/gay/latino friends!" argument. Positive interaction in the past doesn't eliminate a likely tendency to profile.

Yup you can swing stuff every which way - just gotta figure out what makes more sense....

[MelBridgeman]

This whole back in forth about "race" when it appears it wasn't much of a factor - is totally drowning out the real issue - Americas gun laws, Florida's syg/self defence laws.

Bottom line you kill someone and your life is not in danger - you should go to jail

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

This whole back in forth about "race" when it appears it wasn't much of a factor - is totally drowning out the real issue - Americas gun laws, Florida's syg/self defence laws.

Bottom line you kill someone and your life is not in danger - you should go to jail

Just don't leave any witnesses. Dead people can't tell their story.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by nik-

The "But I have black/gay/latino friends!" argument. Positive interaction in the past doesn't eliminate a likely tendency to profile.

For this purpose, I would say Zimmerman's prior history of interacting with other races would better than having a demonstratable history of beating up/terrorizing black/gay/latino enemies.

Not sure what your point is.

Cowperson

[blankall]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

This whole back in forth about "race" when it appears it wasn't much of a factor - is totally drowning out the real issue - Americas gun laws, Florida's syg/self defence laws.

Bottom line you kill someone and your life is not in danger - you should go to jail

This was not a stand your ground case. This was a straight up self-defence case. The jury decided that Zimmerman had a reasonable belief that his life was in danger.

The self-defence laws here would have been very similar. The difference would be that you Zimmerman be carrying a conceiled weapon.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

For this purpose, I would say Zimmerman's prior history of interacting with other races would better than having a demonstratable history of beating up/terrorizing black/gay/latino enemies.

Not sure what your point is.

Cowperson

I don't think people mean "racist", in that Zimmerman has malice towards black people, but rather that he profiles him based on race. A lot of people do this and don't even realize they are being racist.

Personally, I think he was profiling Martin, but his clothes (and what they implied about his social status), as well as his age played a bigger role than race.

I remember a time when I was 18, I was driving home late at night in my old beater and returning a movie at the after hours dropoff at the store. A cop car pulled up behind me so I couldn't leave and he confronted me about why I was there. I guarantee you that if I was a 40 year old driving a nice car, there would have been no confrontation. I think the same type of profiling was happening here.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by blankall

This was not a stand your ground case. This was a straight up self-defence case. The jury decided that Zimmerman had a reasonable belief that his life was in danger.

The self-defence laws here would have been very similar. The difference would be that you Zimmerman be carrying a conceiled weapon.

I know that but it's still a stupid law - in this country you can't use deadly force for self defence unless your life is threaten - so another difference I believe beside the concealed weapon