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Old 10-16-2016, 08:00 PM   #81
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Old 10-16-2016, 09:02 PM   #82
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You mean exactly what Hartley was doing?

System aside, he just looks so meek behind the bench. He doesn't look very confident and that probably doesn't instill confidence. Hartley for all his faults always looked the part at least.
Actually, you may disagree with Hartley's system, but it was tailor-made for Calgary.

Brent Sutter forced everything along the boards, and forced the team to cycle in the offensive zone as a means to create offence. In the defensive zone, they did pressure a lot more, but when they got possession of the puck, the defencemen had to move the puck up along the boards. Nothing was done up the middle.

Hartley's system used the middle of the ice much more. He actually wanted the play to come off the board. Makes sense - Flames were undersized team (and an old, undersized team when he took over, to make matters worse).

Hartley's system took advantage of an undersized forward unit with very mobile and offensive-minded defencemen. Forwards were supposed to skate back hard and come back deep on defence (something that happened regularly I thought the year they made the playoffs, not as much last season) which is the whole 'you have to be very fit' and 'our training camps are really hard' approach. The general notion was that they would collapse around the net and block shots, and wait for possession, and then create offence off the rush either with break-outs or stretch-passes.

Now - as Oil Stain stated previously - I couldn't tell you what the specifics was.

I do not know what Gulutzan's system that he wants to implement is or not, much less figure out if it is fit for the Flames or not. Brent Sutter's was not by what I saw. Hartley's was a system that 'fit' the team much more, though it left something to be desired defensively.

From what I have heard, it is only tidbits of what the system is:

1) Doesn't want to give up the blue-line as easily - wants to make zone entries much more difficult (it was seemingly working for long stretches in one of the Edmonton games, and in the Vancouver game.

2) Pressure the puck carrier in the defensive zone more. That seemed to be the case.

3) He has stated that shot-blocking is a last resort. They will still use it, but only when everything else falls apart.

4) He is most obviously utilizing the stretch pass still. No surprise - Vancouver often used it as well.

That is all I can really tell so far. Sometimes I think the Flames are running something, and then it disappears. I don't know if the Flames are really just figuring out how to implement the system, if the players are having difficult maintaining it under pressure, etc. It is always difficult to figure out systems unless (like Oil Stain pointed out) that you are a high-level coach yourself. All I can see is some tendencies and patterns, and of course pick up on things from the players and the coaching staff during interviews.

As far as I could tell, Hartley's system was mostly built around the Flames' strengths (skating, puck-moving defencemen) and tried to avoid the weaknesses (cycling, board work).

I have no idea yet what Gulutzan's system is designed around, other than 'puck possession' (which means different things to different people - like the Oilers who just tried to shoot a lot to increase the CORSI, never mind that they would lose possession with low-percentage shots). Once the Flames are playing regularly, then we can probably dissect it more.
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:22 AM   #83
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I admit, I was tempted to reach for the panic button a few times this past several days, but this goes to show why it's a guarded switch that requires keyed access and the input of a discrete code that's changed once every four days.

It sucks to drop three games in a row to bitter rivals, but this wasn't entirely unforeseen with a new coach in the fold. My trust that things will improve ultimately begins with my trust in Treliving as a GM. I mentioned it in one of the threads before Gulutzan was hired, but there's no one in the organization who's more nervous about the decision to hire a new coach than the GM, and Treliving is obviously a guy who does his homework and doesn't make whimsical hires strictly on the basis of a gut feeling, nepotism, or single stat lines. A lot is riding on this hire, so it's simply way too early for me to come close to believing that Treliving just went out and hired an absolute dud of a head coach out of sheer miscalculation or incompetence.

A bit of patience, and I think things will start to look up before long.
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Old 10-17-2016, 03:13 AM   #84
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When I saw the preseason camps, there was emphasis on zone exits. Rather than relying on a stretch pass, the forwards were supposed to create options for the D and open passing lanes.

Where Hartley possibly had the Flames forwards skate hard and blow the zone, Gully seemed to want more of a cohesive outbound unit. Giving the D more potentially successful options on the transition.

So far I haven't seen it working but need to look closer at why it doesn't.

That's what Practices are for, now that you have the actual team all under contract
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:01 AM   #85
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Brodie playing like himself would make the system look 10x better

3 games in he still looks like he's on summer vacation so hopefully he gets his head in the game by tomorrow.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:07 AM   #86
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Actually, you may disagree with Hartley's system, but it was tailor-made for Calgary.
I don't disagree, That was actually my point.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:09 AM   #87
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Im guessing im in the minority, but I thought the system looked great on Saturday. When there were breakdowns, players were in position to limit the second and third chances, or the lanes were quickly filled and the chance was mitigated. It just seemed like less of a firedrill than any point I can recall last year. Johnson played really good, but he didnt seem to have to make the second and third saves or sprawling saves of yesteryear. We should make that our d for the rest of the year and they will be fine.

Thought Ferland and Bouma looked good also. Would like to see the second line generate a little more, would be my lone complaint.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:51 AM   #88
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I figure I'll give it more than 3 games to pass judgement. Not sure why we are over reacting to this 3 games in but, I'm not surprised at the same time.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:56 AM   #89
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I'll give it more than 3 games, but if the lack of in game adjustments continues, then i'm referring to him as Glug Glug for trying to make us drink the koolaid about his system
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:10 AM   #90
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IMO for the system implementation:

Knowledge -> Habit -> Second nature

I am assuming most of the players are still between the knowledge and habit phase. I may be a little more patient than most, but I will be waiting till the end of November to make an opinion as I'd hope most players are within the habit phase and moving towards the second nature phase.

Similar to some other posters, I don't fully get what Gulutzan's system is. I know of the components he has spoken about, but I don't have a great visual understanding of it yet. He has stated that sometimes players fall back into old habits. Overall, it does seem like there are glimpses of the new system and then glimpses of the old system too. The old system showing up is a little inevitable. It was the second nature of most of the team for a few years.

I am not worried.
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:28 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by killer_carlson View Post
I'll give it more than 3 games, but if the lack of in game adjustments continues, then i'm referring to him as Glug Glug for trying to make us drink the koolaid about his system
Treliving is the guy that drank the Kool-Aid not me or fans in general that were a little underwhelmed by the hire. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until the half mark of the season but if things are still a mess by then there's a good chance Gulutzan is who we thought he is.
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:50 AM   #92
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I think Gulutzan is a dud. I was never impressed by his body of work in Dallas.
He may have interviewed well and may be a hardworker willing to put in long hours but that doesnt guarantee that he will be a good coach.

If the Flames stink up the start of the season real bad, the upside is that Gulutzan may be gone quick. Id hate to see 2 or 3 seasons with our young core wasted with this dud.
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:56 AM   #93
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Here's why I'm not worried about GG yet:
  • It's only been 3 games with the full roster, with the top line barely being acquired/ready to play by the first game (of course, there's a little blame to go around with the poor decision-making for the training camp/preseason)
  • The PK has looked much better so far
  • The PP has had some sustained pressure and has looked good in spurts
  • GG has shown an ability to change depending on what does and doesn't work - i.e. benching Wideman/Grossmann, giving Hamilton/Bennett time on the PP, giving Hamilton ice time, putting Gio/Brodie back together after one game. Let's not forget that Hartley hardly or slowly changed.
  • It's expected that some old habits have to be unlearned from the Hartley regime, especially after four seasons (looking for the stretch pass, passive defending, shot blocking) - any system would break down if half the players are not following it
  • Decent underlying possession numbers
  • Our best players are not our best players right now

I'm not sure if it's fair to GG if we say he doesn't know how to utilize the players yet. The Gio/Brodie split is an example of this - he tried something that may work in theory - it didn't work so he changed it immediately (even within the same game IIRC). I have no doubt that if Gaudreau and Monahan were ready to start the season, there would be a huge difference and no one would be calling for his head right now. That being said, he should be criticized - but let's wait till game 20.
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:58 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taco.vidal View Post
I think Gulutzan is a dud. I was never impressed by his body of work in Dallas.
He may have interviewed well and may be a hardworker willing to put in long hours but that doesnt guarantee that he will be a good coach.

If the Flames stink up the start of the season real bad, the upside is that Gulutzan may be gone quick. Id hate to see 2 or 3 seasons with our young core wasted with this dud.
Quite premature to call him a dud. I wasn't sold at his hiring either, and I still have yet to see any progression from the hire, however, I have to trust the brass in what they saw in him. 3 games isn't a long enough sample.

If Gully flounders and the results don't unfold in the standings and on the ice, then by all means stamp him with the label.
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:59 AM   #95
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I think Gulutzan is a dud. I was never impressed by his body of work in Dallas.
Out of curiosity, how much video of his body of work in Dallas did you analyze?

Because Treliving analyzed a lot of it on video and was impressed by it.
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:27 AM   #96
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Open question, is GG using the same systems that he used with the Stars?
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:41 AM   #97
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I'm going to go with Peter Maher's formula that you don't know what a team really is until the second 20 games. Judging a new coach and system is premature until then. Hopefully it doesn't take near that many games to get it together
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:46 AM   #98
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For the advanced stats fans:

Christian Roatis @CRoatis

#Flames are Top 5 in CF% among teams that have played >1game and bottom 5 in PDO.

In English: they're unlucky to be 0-2-1. Deep breaths.
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:47 AM   #99
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Open question, is GG using the same systems that he used with the Stars?
I am not sure how different or similar those systems are between Dallas and Calgary now, but during an interview he did mention that some of the things he tried in Dallas he wouldn't try again. What exactly they were, I don't know.

Not much info, but at least it shows he analyzed what he has done in the past and is willing to modify 'somethings', FWIW.
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:48 AM   #100
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I'm going to go with Peter Maher's formula that you don't know what a team really is until the second 20 games. Judging a new coach and system is premature until then. Hopefully it doesn't take near that many games to get it together
That may be, but you can kiss playoffs goodbye if you get behind in the first 20
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