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Old 10-23-2016, 12:11 AM   #241
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Maybe Guletzan needs to be tuned up by Treliving and or Burke about changing his system.
Like any employee he has to answer to his managers and its not like he has a large body of successful work to fall back on to deserve a lot of rope. He's young, he's got some ideas, they haven't produced results. Fine. Now get back to the ######ing drawing board right ######ing now and come up with something that works.
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:11 AM   #242
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I like it a lot. It is the system I was hoping for.

The defense is very tight in the defensive zone, and the forwards are more prone to clog up the front of the net. Allowing shots from the perimeter is not a big deal. Preventing ones from the home plate area is paramount. The goalies by in large can stop the point shots and ones from the half wall area without much difficulty. The shots from in tight are the problem (see three of Van's four goals tonight for an example).

The breakouts are as a team, which with the type of guys we have on the back end is how it should be. They are fast, so having them not to jump way up in the play makes it both easier to contribute offensively, but also decreases the distance they have to go to get back. Once Gaudreau and Monahan are back together and the third line of what I'm assuming will be Bouma-Backlund-Frolik are going, this team is going to be deadly.

Each game we were good in the Corsi department and outshot the other team heavily. Once you get some skilled guys in there, it makes it all the more easy for goals to come.

Hard to score when you're basically putting 4th line AHL players out there in most of the games during the preseason.
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It will be okay though because we are going to win a lot more games now and that's the important thing.
A) Quoted for posterity.

B) You want a second shot at this?
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:12 AM   #243
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I wouldnt call it a 'system'.
I would call it a 'terrible plan'.
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:15 AM   #244
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If I could post a graphic picture of a giant human turd without getting sin-binned, I would. That would pretty much sum up my thoughts on GG's 'system'.
At least that image would have an identity, after 6 games I still have no idea what the "system" is and it looks like the players don't either.
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Old 10-23-2016, 02:22 AM   #245
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At least that image would have an identity, after 6 games I still have no idea what the "system" is and it looks like the players don't either.
It's not a "system". It's a secret experiment code named "the process".
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Old 10-23-2016, 04:39 AM   #246
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Maybe Guletzan needs to be tuned up by Treliving and or Burke about changing his system.
Like any employee he has to answer to his managers and its not like he has a large body of successful work to fall back on to deserve a lot of rope. He's young, he's got some ideas, they haven't produced results. Fine. Now get back to the ######ing drawing board right ######ing now and come up with something that works.
Based on the knowledge base he gained from trial by error in his Dallas failure or his assistant coaching on a dreadful Van team? Oh I like this.

At least Keenan and Hartley had cups to buy some player respect.
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Old 10-23-2016, 06:09 AM   #247
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I still think the team is not prepared to play each night. They don't look like they are on the same page and have any idea what the other team is going to do or which players to key on. They have had last change and have been bested at every turn. Special teams are horrific. It appears this coaching staff is over its head. I would like to try and judge a system, but it doesn't appear there is one to judge. Sigh.
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Old 10-23-2016, 06:30 AM   #248
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A) Quoted for posterity.

B) You want a second shot at this?
I do still like the fundamentals of the system. Unfortunately, none of the players seem to be making any good decisions with the puck at all. The main problem is the lack of ability to adapt to change. Last year, how long did it take for Hamilton to learn the system. This year, we're having that problem. Unfortunately, instead of being one player it is more than half the team.

The system itself is not very complicated. Keep control of the puck, make passes to players that are moving so they can enter the offensive zone and keep a hold of the puck so you can generate scoring chances off the cycle. Unfortunately, players are having such a hard time that they are even stopping in the neutral zone to receive passes, which makes it both easy to intercept and easy to get into defensive position to prevent that player from having options both in terms of passing it again and in movement.

It also doesn't help that players are turning the puck over repeatedly at the blue lines, leading to odd man rushes like with the Teravainen goal vs Car, or the Perron hat trick goal vs STL. None of the Flames defense, Engelland excluded, have played even adequate defensively. Most of the time they have looked like Kylington at the beginning of last season. On the PK, they are having a difficult time clearing screens of the goalies and they are screening the goalies occasionally themselves.

The players need to learn what end of their stick is up. They are playing like they forgot even that basic task. Gaudreau and Monahan look like what Monahan and Hudler did during the Ducks playoff series. Broken and ineffective. At the end of the day, if your best players are not your best players, you are not going to win. When your best players post a -4 when you only allow 4 even strength goals, you're going to have a bad time.

I would like to see the system utilized properly, mainly because it's similar to the type of system that Chicago and Detroit have used in the recent past. The players just aren't able to make it work as of yet.

The power play and how it is set up is has been legitimately terrible. Too slow. If you do have to puck for more than a second without moving, you're doing something wrong. None of the players are moving. That means that you as a defending team can set up sticks in passing lanes and force pressure on the puck carrier. If they have no options available, it means they are either going to force a low probably play or turn it over (both of which usually result in the puck in our end).

It is not a surprise that the most intelligent defensive forwards have also been the Flames best forwards thus far. They are working easily in the system and they are finding a lot of success. Stajan, Backlund, Frolik, and Brouwer have easily been the best of the bunch. Everyone else has been okay (Versteeg/Ferland), to horrible (most of the rest)

I'm a patient person, but I am getting frustrated by the lack of execution of the other 13 players. If they were playing as the five above (4 F + DE) then the Flames probably win most of the first 5 games and last night would've been a toss up. Unfortunately, we won't know how long/if they figure it out.
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Old 10-23-2016, 07:14 AM   #249
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I do still like the fundamentals of the system. Unfortunately, none of the players seem to be making any good decisions with the puck at all. The main problem is the lack of ability to adapt to change. Last year, how long did it take for Hamilton to learn the system. This year, we're having that problem. Unfortunately, instead of being one player it is more than half the team.

The system itself is not very complicated. Keep control of the puck, make passes to players that are moving so they can enter the offensive zone and keep a hold of the puck so you can generate scoring chances off the cycle. Unfortunately, players are having such a hard time that they are even stopping in the neutral zone to receive passes, which makes it both easy to intercept and easy to get into defensive position to prevent that player from having options both in terms of passing it again and in movement.


It also doesn't help that players are turning the puck over repeatedly at the blue lines, leading to odd man rushes like with the Teravainen goal vs Car, or the Perron hat trick goal vs STL. None of the Flames defense, Engelland excluded, have played even adequate defensively. Most of the time they have looked like Kylington at the beginning of last season. On the PK, they are having a difficult time clearing screens of the goalies and they are screening the goalies occasionally themselves.

The players need to learn what end of their stick is up. They are playing like they forgot even that basic task. Gaudreau and Monahan look like what Monahan and Hudler did during the Ducks playoff series. Broken and ineffective. At the end of the day, if your best players are not your best players, you are not going to win. When your best players post a -4 when you only allow 4 even strength goals, you're going to have a bad time.

I would like to see the system utilized properly, mainly because it's similar to the type of system that Chicago and Detroit have used in the recent past. The players just aren't able to make it work as of yet.

The power play and how it is set up is has been legitimately terrible. Too slow. If you do have to puck for more than a second without moving, you're doing something wrong. None of the players are moving. That means that you as a defending team can set up sticks in passing lanes and force pressure on the puck carrier. If they have no options available, it means they are either going to force a low probably play or turn it over (both of which usually result in the puck in our end).

It is not a surprise that the most intelligent defensive forwards have also been the Flames best forwards thus far. They are working easily in the system and they are finding a lot of success. Stajan, Backlund, Frolik, and Brouwer have easily been the best of the bunch. Everyone else has been okay (Versteeg/Ferland), to horrible (most of the rest)

I'm a patient person, but I am getting frustrated by the lack of execution of the other 13 players. If they were playing as the five above (4 F + DE) then the Flames probably win most of the first 5 games and last night would've been a toss up. Unfortunately, we won't know how long/if they figure it out.
Gaudreau looked great last month with new teammates and coaches on limited time together. Then he comes back to the Flames with his old teammates but new coaches and system and he looks like garbage. If Gully's system is so complicated that no one can learn it quickly and the team is going to throw away the first few months of the season learning it, then Gully is a ####ty coach.

But in actuality, it seems the system itself is ####ty rather the player execution of the system. The bolded part above doesnt make sense. If the system isnt complicated, why are the players having such a hard time with it?
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:36 AM   #250
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I'm bored so I went back and looked at the first 20 games over the last 10 years.

2005/06: 11-7-2 but we're 4-7-2 after 13 games before a good 8 game win streak. Darryl was still the coach so there was no new system to learn. Ended the season 46-25-11 good for 1st in the division and the number 3 seed. Beaten by Anaheim in 7 games behind stellar goaltending.

2006/07: 10-8-2 but after the first 11 games the record was abysmal 3-7-1. Playfair's first year as HC but his system didn't change much from Darryl's so not a lot of time needed to learn. Ended the year 43-29-10 limping into the playoffs with 4 straight losses (as the 8th seed) and would've been easily dispatched if it weren't for Kipper, losing in 6 games to Detroit.

2007/08: 8-9-3 and Keenan's first year but he didn't really have a system so not a lot of adjustment time needed. Finished 42-30-10, 7th in division, losing to San Jose in the first round in 7 games.

2008/09: 11-8-1 start for Keenan's 2nd year. Finished 46-30-6 barely missing out on home ice advantage as the 5th seed, versus the early beginnings of Chicago's dynasty. Lost in 6 games, losing the last 2 badly.

2009/10: 12-6-2, great start for the dreaded "Butter" years. Ended up 40-32-10 missing the playoffs in 10th place in the west.

2010/11: 8-11-1 but started well the first 9 at 6-3. Ended up with a record of 41-29-12, again good for 10th in the conference, missing the playoffs.

2011/12: Identical to the previous year at 8-11-1, but floated near .500 for the first 13 games 6-6-1. Missing the playoffs again this time in 9th.

2012/13: The lockout shortened season Sony game 20 the season was half done and despite yet another new coach and system went an okay 8-8-4. Ended 13th in the west, 19-25-4 starting the rebuild by shipping off Iggy and JBo.

2013/14: First post-Iggy season and a bad first 20 with a record of 6-11-3. Ended 35-40-7, outside the playoffs in 13th place.

2014/15: God, what a fun season. Started 12-6-2, rode Johnny-Mony-Hudler, solid goaltending and great contributions from the D to the playoffs and kicked Vancouver out in 6.

2015/16: Bob's last season and the goaltending absolutely tanked. Started the year 7-12-1 finishing 35-40-7, 10 points out of the wild card.

tl;dr = Flames have a history of being bad early. In the years they made the playoffs they were able to turn it around. The first twenty game average record for seasons they made and didn't make the playoffs are very similar. Made = 10-8-2. Missed = 8-9-2. Moreover, they never had a record over .500 in the first 10 games of every recent season they made the playoffs and every year they had a good start (except 2014/15) they finished terribly. Got to give it to at least around game 15 to see what kind of team they will be. Early results aren't good, but they weren't good in a lot of other years too, still time to turn it around. A good showing against the Blues would calm this place down a bit.
If the Flames have a history of being slow starters I wonder what the contributing factor is. Their slow starts have been under different management, different coaches and with different core players but the typical result is a near 0.500 start.

Something doesn't seem right about that. Does the Dome not play well during warmer weather?
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:46 AM   #251
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Can't stand coaches who think they can reinvent the game and are smarter than everyone else. A coaches job is to motivate players and give them a system that plays to the strengths of the team. GG seems obsessed with doing the opposite.
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:53 AM   #252
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Can't stand coaches who think they can reinvent the game and are smarter than everyone else. A coaches job is to motivate players and give them a system that plays to the strengths of the team. GG seems obsessed with doing the opposite.
Treliving and Burke would've known this during their interview process as well, so they are just as much at fault here.
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Old 10-23-2016, 09:05 AM   #253
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The Flames as a team play a style (GG's?) that I don't like: they don't pressure the puck carrier directly, but play a foot or two off him. Every frickin' time. That allows the opposing player WAY too much time to move the puck.

This is an old technique from the very static game of Go -- play just off your opponent as it allows you latitude to cover a wider area. Works fine in a static environment - does not work at all in hockey.

As far as the breakouts go, they are just overthinking and not trusting their instincts -- you can see that in the bad, bobbled, dropped and fumbled passes. That part can change - but the defensive side of the puck....that type of plan simply will not work.

The other thing I see regularly is guys with their backs to the puck: Wideman was a perfect example of that on the PP vs St Louis -- several times the puck was cleared back to him at the point - but he turned his back to the play, tried to stop the puck (maybe intending to spin around?) and lost it over the blue line. I've seen the same thing from others. No idea what they're trying to do there.
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Old 10-23-2016, 09:13 AM   #254
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More of a strategy than a system, but I really think this team needs to focus on defense and be more patient for opportunities. We have the forwards that can sting when they need to, but right now everything they do is predictable.
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Old 10-23-2016, 09:19 AM   #255
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If Hartley did not get credit before, he should now.
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Old 10-23-2016, 09:25 AM   #256
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If Hartley did not get credit before, he should now.

Credit for what? Other than one season, in which there were an unobtainable amount of comebacks , his teams have been more exciting to watch but just as bad in the loss column.
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Old 10-23-2016, 09:38 AM   #257
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Credit for what? Other than one season, in which there were an unobtainable amount of comebacks , his teams have been more exciting to watch but just as bad in the loss column.
The comebacks were a by-product of two things: patience and inspiration. That was what Hartley provided, and the players responded. With patience they developed confidence, with confidence they could play with inspiration, knowing they weren't going to get chopped for the inevitable dumb mistake.

I'll take that any day over the drivel currently on the ice.
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Old 10-23-2016, 10:31 AM   #258
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Credit for what? Other than one season, in which there were an unobtainable amount of comebacks , his teams have been more exciting to watch but just as bad in the loss column.
He also was stuck with the worst goaltending in 20 years.
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Old 10-23-2016, 10:32 AM   #259
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He also was stuck with the worst goaltending in 20 years.
Which is somehow even worse this year
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Old 10-23-2016, 10:43 AM   #260
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Which is somehow even worse this year
Treliving didn't fire Sigalet, so it's not a huge mystery, imo.

It's for sure not Ramo, Ortio, or Hiller's fault this go around. Elliott does look like them though.
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