1 open, anyone can play
1 closed, for people who don't want to play against men.
Do you allow trans women who were male at birth to compete in the closed division, even if they went through puberty as a male? Because if so that's exactly the system we have now.
I was very hesitant whether I should post in here... but I did want to put in some general observations on how people discuss topics that I hope might help others. Feel free to ignore my post.
I honestly believe my existence in such threads merely contributes towards noise that derails discussion. I just want to be a wall flower and listen, understand and learn more. I'd like to continue having a view from 100 feet up, continuing towards my personal journey without the opinions and comments from others. I'm not trying to do a drive by, but please also don't drag me in and insist I take a stance.
Engaging in this topic on the internet often seems completely different than real life.
My general observations and greatest concern with these types of topics is that it honestly feels like people behave and interpret posts as if everyone is posting in pure caps lock... like the difference between posting only, "I am happy." vs "I AM HAPPY!" The amount of annoyance, disdain, misinterpretation, responses (whereas sometimes there would be none if the post wasn't in all caps) etc. if posted with zero context in another thread, seem to occur in such threads as if all posts were emotionally charged and interpreted if they were typed out in all caps. It would end up creating all sorts of noise to the point where the noise drowns out whatever reasonable dialogue could be had. I know some people are pessimistic to the ability to have dialogue, but I personally don't think the answer is opposing monologues either.
Additionally, I find that topics of this nature often devolve into simply finger pointing as who someone things the enemies are and who the allies are... whether or not these speculations and opinions are accurate. Again, this is just noise or the vast majority of people use filters to the point they only focus on those comments they identify with and filter out those they do not. This just means that everyone goes in and exits in the same place they were before. That's not really useful in a situation where there is a movement involved hoping to build traction and momentum IMO. Wouldn't any movement be better measured in its success based on how many people the movement "redeems/integrates" without the use of force? All movements benefit with the increase of allies. All movements do not benefit from the increase of enemies.
To use the Chris Pratt meme: "I don't know where I stand in relation to this topic... and at this point I am too afraid to ask." That's how I feel on the internet for this topic and similar topics and I think many others are the same.
Some individuals are relatively neutral and willing to be open minded. By open minded, they don't want to stay where they are, but they also don't know where they are standing in the case of the topic and where they want to go/end up in the case of the topic.
They'll immediately run into others on the internet who are on either extreme side of the topic and be told, "This is where you stand. Feel bad about it." or "This is where you stand. Good job." But these comments are also damaging IMO because this dialogue automatically goes in the direction of sorting individuals as heroes or villains. It also accurately or inaccurately associates an individual to a description of a fixed point then tells the individual to stay there. This hurts both sides because theoretically creates more and more abstain votes. The abstain votes hurt both sides because in a movement, you need movement, not a large majority told to stay idle. Someone should not carelessly obstruct someone who is uncertain on where they stand from movement, then disregard how they could have cause someone to subjectively feel like they shouldn't continue moving either.
Again, this is what I've observed with the online discussions. Reality is completely different from my experience.
The reality I've experienced, the coolest people every with differing opinions and not letting those opinions dissuade them from awesome and meaningful friendships, interactions and growth.
Online, the smallest things are used to draw lines and separate/fragment groups into smaller ones. That's why I believe there's got to be a better way to discuss this stuff online.
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Do you allow trans women who were male at birth to compete in the closed division, even if they went through puberty as a male? Because if so that's exactly the system we have now.
Sure, why not? If they really wanted to be the best they would play in the open.
Yeah creating new systems for the whole 32 trans athletes competing seems like a solid plan.
Such a tempest in a teapot to rile up those easily led around by the nose. 32 people? Well goddamn son that’s basically a deluge. An avalanche. A preponderance. They’re likely to overrun and destroy the other 480,000 athletes competing in the NCAA.
Red meat for the simple minded
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Actually, I never did mention any one group. That was you. I placed the blame at the feet of the institutions for their poor handling of these groups and then using bad structures like DEI to try and force acceptance. Look at what I posted again.
"The momentum of the swing was leveraged by every queer sub-culture and fractured it into too many facets for people to grasp. Worse, the cultures began to be rammed down the throats of everyone with forced diversity, equity, and inclusion programs.
Right here, you blame 'every queer subculture' for leveraging the 'momentum of the swing' and your statement about blaming the institutions is disingenuous as it is the marginalized people AT those institutions who are responsible for creating and implementing the DEIJ (I don't know why you keep leaving the 'J' off) programs.
The rest of your post is basically the same argument that the Alabama clergy put forth in their April 12, 1963 open letter "A Call for Unity"
Quote:
We recognize the natural impatience of people who feel that their hopes are slow in being realized. But we are convinced that these demonstrations are unwise and untimely. ... we believe this kind of facing of issues can best be accomplished by citizens of our own metropolitan area ... meeting with their knowledge and experience of the local situation. All of us need to face that responsibility and find proper channels for its accomplishment. ... Just as we formerly pointed out that "hatred and violence have no sanction in our religious and political tradition." We also point out that such actions as incite to hatred and violence, however technically peaceful those actions may be, have not contributed to the resolution of our local problems. ... When rights are consistently denied, a cause should be pressed in the courts and in negotiations among local leaders, and not in the streets.
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."
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I was very hesitant whether I should post in here... but I did want to put in some general observations on how people discuss topics that I hope might help others. Feel free to ignore my post.
I honestly believe my existence in such threads merely contributes towards noise that derails discussion. I just want to be a wall flower and listen, understand and learn more. I'd like to continue having a view from 100 feet up, continuing towards my personal journey without the opinions and comments from others. I'm not trying to do a drive by, but please also don't drag me in and insist I take a stance.
Engaging in this topic on the internet often seems completely different than real life.
My general observations and greatest concern with these types of topics is that it honestly feels like people behave and interpret posts as if everyone is posting in pure caps lock... like the difference between posting only, "I am happy." vs "I AM HAPPY!" The amount of annoyance, disdain, misinterpretation, responses (whereas sometimes there would be none if the post wasn't in all caps) etc. if posted with zero context in another thread, seem to occur in such threads as if all posts were emotionally charged and interpreted if they were typed out in all caps. It would end up creating all sorts of noise to the point where the noise drowns out whatever reasonable dialogue could be had. I know some people are pessimistic to the ability to have dialogue, but I personally don't think the answer is opposing monologues either.
Additionally, I find that topics of this nature often devolve into simply finger pointing as who someone things the enemies are and who the allies are... whether or not these speculations and opinions are accurate. Again, this is just noise or the vast majority of people use filters to the point they only focus on those comments they identify with and filter out those they do not. This just means that everyone goes in and exits in the same place they were before. That's not really useful in a situation where there is a movement involved hoping to build traction and momentum IMO. Wouldn't any movement be better measured in its success based on how many people the movement "redeems/integrates" without the use of force? All movements benefit with the increase of allies. All movements do not benefit from the increase of enemies.
To use the Chris Pratt meme: "I don't know where I stand in relation to this topic... and at this point I am too afraid to ask." That's how I feel on the internet for this topic and similar topics and I think many others are the same.
Some individuals are relatively neutral and willing to be open minded. By open minded, they don't want to stay where they are, but they also don't know where they are standing in the case of the topic and where they want to go/end up in the case of the topic.
They'll immediately run into others on the internet who are on either extreme side of the topic and be told, "This is where you stand. Feel bad about it." or "This is where you stand. Good job." But these comments are also damaging IMO because this dialogue automatically goes in the direction of sorting individuals as heroes or villains. It also accurately or inaccurately associates an individual to a description of a fixed point then tells the individual to stay there. This hurts both sides because theoretically creates more and more abstain votes. The abstain votes hurt both sides because in a movement, you need movement, not a large majority told to stay idle. Someone should not carelessly obstruct someone who is uncertain on where they stand from movement, then disregard how they could have cause someone to subjectively feel like they shouldn't continue moving either.
Again, this is what I've observed with the online discussions. Reality is completely different from my experience.
The reality I've experienced, the coolest people every with differing opinions and not letting those opinions dissuade them from awesome and meaningful friendships, interactions and growth.
Online, the smallest things are used to draw lines and separate/fragment groups into smaller ones. That's why I believe there's got to be a better way to discuss this stuff online.
Well said. If someone gets a sniff that you’re not sure where you fully stand, it’s a time to paint the person to the opposite side until they feel the need to justify their belief. The internet becomes an echo chamber. It’s important to understand where people come, yes, from both sides, to bridge gaps and misunderstandings, or beliefs that need to be massaged a little. Internet discussions on these things tend to just be silly discussions amounting to finger pointing and aligning to extremes. It’s the equivalent of talking without listening, and dying to get that extra like in.
Not to mention the nationwide protest that was covered by everyone. There's countless more examples.
I don't see almost daily articles on budgets, housing, homelessness, the drug epidemic, wage stagnation etc. on every new site. It's front and center in any place you're finding news. I would bet dollars to doughnuts you're way closer to the far-right rage machine than I am. I can honestly say I've never even visited the daily wire and have no desire to check it out.
You did do a good job of proving a lot of people's points on here. I didn't come in here waving a rainbow flag so I must be part of the right wing rage machine, nice.
Not to mention the nationwide protest that was covered by everyone. There's countless more examples.
I don't see almost daily articles on budgets, housing, homelessness, the drug epidemic, wage stagnation etc. on every new site. It's front and center in any place you're finding news.
I did a search on the CBC website for the following terms:
"LGBT" 3,070 articles
"Budget" 33,679 articles
"Housing" 42,703 articles
"Homelessness" 11,144 articles
"opioids" (as a more generic term for "drug epidemic") 3,037 articles
"inflation" (as a more generic "wage stagnation") 10,220 articles
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Love when a tread about tracking a hate movement has several posters essentially using soft talking points about the validity of the said hate movement. And even less than a week after the day that recognizes the disease that essentially killed a whole generation of Queer folks that Governments turned a blind eye too. Very Cool.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
Thats why Flames fans make ideal Star Trek fans. We've really been taught to embrace the self-loathing and extreme criticism.
You did do a good job of proving a lot of people's points on here. I didn't come in here waving a rainbow flag so I must be part of the right wing rage machine, nice.
It’s probably because you came in here saying “the gays took my jerb,” followed it up with calling any focus on trans rights “insane,” and then doubled down in this post by presenting your search results for “LGBTQ” without context while saying “it’s in my face!”
I know a lot of people who are “live and let live” types who couldn’t raise a finger for effort towards LGBTQ issues and somehow they manage not to do… whatever all that was.
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Well said. If someone gets a sniff that you’re not sure where you fully stand, it’s a time to paint the person to the opposite side until they feel the need to justify their belief. The internet becomes an echo chamber. It’s important to understand where people come, yes, from both sides, to bridge gaps and misunderstandings, or beliefs that need to be massaged a little. Internet discussions on these things tend to just be silly discussions amounting to finger pointing and aligning to extremes. It’s the equivalent of talking without listening, and dying to get that extra like in.
Bit ironic considering we’re now at hundreds of words of vague “both sides, many sides, we have to listen” language from someone who has completely ignored and or outright dismissed the valid concerns of one side of the discussion while saying he was too lazy to add two extra letters and a plus sign to an acronym.
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love when a tread about tracking a hate movement has several posters essentially using soft talking points about the validity of the said hate movement. And even less than a week after the day that recognizes the disease that essentially killed a whole generation of queer folks that governments turned a blind eye too. Very cool.
aids/hiv?
__________________
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Bit ironic considering we’re now at hundreds of words of vague “both sides, many sides, we have to listen” language from someone who has completely ignored and or outright dismissed the valid concerns of one side of the discussion while saying he was too lazy to add two extra letters and a plus sign to an acronym.
What are you talking about re: letters? And are people now nitpicking on every little thing that someone didn’t get right?
Right here, you blame 'every queer subculture' for leveraging the 'momentum of the swing' and your statement about blaming the institutions is disingenuous as it is the marginalized people AT those institutions who are responsible for creating and implementing the DEIJ (I don't know why you keep leaving the 'J' off) programs.
No blame there at all. Seems you’re just looking for a fight by selectively quoting a few words here and there instead of reading things in context. At no time did I single out a group or say anything that would be construed as disrespectful. People were asking “why” would there be such a backlash and I outlined the reasons for such broad perceptions and feelings toward the issue.
The lack of “J” is because the places where I’ve been with programs were just identified as DE&I. Nothing intentional so stop clutching your pearls so tightly.
It’s funny, but we’re on the same side of this issue, just wanting different mechanisms to be employed so all people can achieve the same status. I appreciate your position but recognize there is a large portion of the population who don’t and you have to sway them to end the hate once and for all. Forcing something on them is a sure loss strategy.
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As an immigrant to Canada this completely reads as a shot at immigrants.
Is it possible some immigrants left their country of birth because they were against that nation's views on Human Rights?
Laying this at the feet of immigrants is unnecessary and unfair and sounds like a loud dog whistle.
Actually, quite the contrary actually. As I said, I am a son of immigrants and consider myself more aligned culturally and more with immigrants than I do with "old stock Canadians" so to speak.
I was definitely not "blaming" this situation with LGBTQ rights on immigrants or people like myself who grew up with immigrant mindsets.
I do think that some of the concerns being expressed here are a result of some aspect of Canadian immigration and cultural norms from other countries. Some of the backlash so to speak. It's not all redneck, conservative, white people who are doing all the complaining and pushing back.
As I had said in my post, the observation, and the mindset that a lot of people have with regards to this is just different with people from other countries.
I am currently on a longer term stay in Europe at the moment and when I describe in general terms some of the battles, discussions, progressive/regressive/crazy movements in regards the topic at hand, people legit think I, we, Canada/North America has gone mad.
I don't know your background but if you immigrated from another country, I am curious as to what people's mindset may be back in your native home country? I assume it may differ from Canada's.
Actually, quite the contrary actually. As I said, I am a son of immigrants and consider myself more aligned culturally and more with immigrants than I do with "old stock Canadians" so to speak.
I was definitely not "blaming" this situation with LGBTQ rights on immigrants or people like myself who grew up with immigrant mindsets.
I do think that some of the concerns being expressed here are a result of some aspect of Canadian immigration and cultural norms from other countries. Some of the backlash so to speak. It's not all redneck, conservative, white people who are doing all the complaining and pushing back.
As I had said in my post, the observation, and the mindset that a lot of people have with regards to this is just different with people from other countries.
I am currently on a longer term stay in Europe at the moment and when I describe in general terms some of the battles, discussions, progressive/regressive/crazy movements in regards the topic at hand, people legit think I, we, Canada/North America has gone mad.
I don't really believe you
Quote:
I don't know your background but if you immigrated from another country, I am curious as to what people's mindset may be back in your native home country? I assume it may differ from Canada's.
No ####ing clue
I am proud of my Canadian Citizenship.
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
What are you talking about re: letters? And are people now nitpicking on every little thing that someone didn’t get right?
Sorry, I actually blended you and RichieRich into one person on the LGB thing. That’s my bad.
But my point about the vague generalities stands. It’s fine to “both sides” the thing to death I guess, but while doing that you’re not actually listening or engaging with one side with any honesty, so it’s a bit meaningless, right? Very easy to say, and very easy to hand waive the entire discussion away as some silly “two extremes going at it” thing, but what are the extremes you’re talking about?
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