Brouwer discussion

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

I also seem to remember people ragging on Frolik, but maybe that was just Ricardo – in which case nevermind.

It wasn't just Ricardodw, there was definitely a fair bit of grumbling over his contract and perceived value.

It was nothing like the vitriol being thrown at Brouwer, but his play was no where near as poor as Brouwer's has been either.

It still serves as a lesson for patience.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Gio.

The only thing Troy Brouwer has done wrong is he had his 30th birthday. I don't get CPs hate on for veteran players.

Ya, he is cold right now. Every other player on this team had gone on a long cold stretch except maybe Backlund. And Backlund once had a cold stretch that lasted about five years.

Exactly.

Some people just can't wait to suggest that a player's skills are declining.

Every player's level of play ebbs and flows. And they have good years and bad years.

But God help you if you have an off year and you're over 30 and playing for a Canadian team.

[killer_carlson]

Those of you who frequent the Saddledome, any suggestion that Brouwer's hand hasn't fully healed?

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What other players out there do you have to wait right through the entire regular season at $4mil a year before you see if they provide worth?

There's plenty of players out there who have a reputation for being big in the playoffs and being worth waiting for the playoffs to turn it on. Hawks had players like Bickell, Bollig who got it done post season. Edmonton is relaying on Lucic to turn it on when they make it in. All I'm saying, is that I'm willing to wait him out to see if he can get that extra gear when the playoffs roll around.

Waiting for the playoffs to roll around isn't ideal. But luckily the team is winning and the Flames have a chance to dump him due to the expansion draft if he doesn't pan out. If he becomes a big part of a playoff run, then that's good. If not, expose him. Either way, win-win in my opinion. Maybe Brouwer regains some post season magic like he had last year. That's what we'd all like. If that doesn't happen, the Flames use a get out of jail free card with expansion. His contract isn't exactly the anchor it's being made out to be.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Exactly.

Some people just can't wait to suggest that a player's skills are declining.

Every player's level of play ebbs and flows. And they have good years and bad years.

But God help you if you have an off year and you're over 30 and playing for a Canadian team.

And yet young players like Gaudreau and Monahan get a free pass for having rough stretches of play because they're young and "learning".

You're either good or you're not. Critiques are fair as long as they are accurate, but sometimes people have axes to grind.

However, we all need to have some patience with athletes. These are people, not robots, and are subject to variations in performance. I can be as patient with a vet as I am with a rookie. I just wish all fans had the same approach.

[Diemenz]

Brouwer has a 4 year contract, players have bad years or years were an injury holds them back. I am sure over his 4 years Calgary will get the worth of the contract. Knee jerk reactions on this site are almost laughable.

Fire GG he sucks......Elliott is a terrible goalie....Frolik is a waste of money......Backlund will never develop......Johnny will never sign........The list goes on and on. Some people need to step away from the keyboard and calm down.

Maybe LA shouldn't protect Kopitar, I mean Christ he's 29 and has scored 9 goals this season. Brouwer, Chiasson, Bennett, Versteeg and Ferland all have more.

Edit: Brouwer has 74 shots this year, want to know what regular forwards have less then him? Stajan and Bouma......Thats it

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Diemenz

Brouwer has a 4 year contract, players have bad years or years were an injury holds them back. I am sure over his 4 years Calgary will get the worth of the contract. Knee jerk reactions on this site are almost laughable.

Fire GG he sucks......Elliott is a terrible goalie....Frolik is a waste of money......Backlund will never develop......Johnny will never sign........The list goes on and on. Some people need to step away from the keyboard and calm down.

Maybe LA shouldn't protect Kopitar, I mean Christ he's 29 and has scored 9 goals this season. Brouwer, Chiasson, Bennett, Versteeg and Ferland all have more.

Actually, I might have serious consideration about exposing Kopitar if I was LA, especially if I thought that maybe this window is running out and it's time to offload assets and start again after this season.

He's a $9mil cap hit until 2025!! If he actually has fallen off from being an elite forward and they think they know it, then yeesh.

[Heavy Jack]

^^^ over/under they blame on a coke problem??

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by jayswin

actually, i might have serious consideration about exposing kopitar if i was la, especially if i thought that maybe this window is running out and it's time to offload assets and start again after this season.

He's a $9mil cap hit until 2025!! If he actually has fallen off from being an elite forward and they think they know it, then yeesh.

omfg!

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Actually, I might have serious consideration about exposing Kopitar if I was LA, especially if I thought that maybe this window is running out and it's time to offload assets and start again after this season.

He's a $9mil cap hit until 2025!! If he actually has fallen off from being an elite forward and they think they know it, then yeesh.

Full NMC for this and the next three seasons, so unless he waives it he has to be protected. Insane contract but Kopitar as plenty of good hockey left I'd imagine. One hell of a brutal season though.

[Hockey-and_stuff]

He hasn't been good this year, there isn't a lot to defend about him when you look at production vs his salary, but he is a new player in a new city with a new coach. I expected more out of him but he is clearly struggling with all the upheaval in his life.

I'm not entirely certain he is fully healed from his hand injury either. He just doesn't seem to be able to play the puck right now. He can't have just lost his hands, something is bothering him I believe.

[Erick Estrada]

He can redeem himself with a great playoff performance like last season. If he doesn't it's without a doubt a very disappointing first season from him.

[GranteedEV]

Vegas probably isn't dumb enough to take him over Stajan, Chiasson, Kulak, Poirier, Shinkaruk, or Bouma. People banking on McPhee to be emotionally attached to the player must be forgetting how much worse the "Brouwer era" Capitals actually were. Even we didn't start winning outside of Chad Johnson going Carey Price until he was demoted to bottom six.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Exactly.

Some people just can't wait to suggest that a player's skills are declining.

Every player's level of play ebbs and flows. And they have good years and bad years.

But God help you if you have an off year and you're over 30 and playing for a Canadian team.

Except that brouwer got his contact on a perceived level of consistency in his career. Something like 17+ goals and 38+ points in 6 straight seasons. He's been bad, very bad.

[Calgary4LIfe]

One exercise that might shed a bit of light on Brouwer for everyone here is to simply do a roster ranking.

Look at the Flames roster, and start ranking them in order from "biggest contributor to success" to "least contributor to success".

For me, Brouwer fell in line with guys like Chiasson (which isn't that bad - I think Chiasson should be re-signed for a SIMILAR cap hit to what he is making this year, as he is giving the Flames solid depth scoring), but more than Bouma (which isn't saying much, as though I like Bouma, he is greatly overpaid) but less than Stajan (who is always on the verge of being a whipping boy himself).

Gaudreau, Monahan, Ferland - nope - all of them I feel have contributed more to winning.
Tkachuk - Backlund - Frolik - nope - I wouldn't think he touches any of these three.
Versteeg? Nope - Versteeg has a bit better scoring, has also fought, and has won an important shootout plus has helped in getting Monahan going again when Monahan and Gaudreau were separated.
Bennett? - Arguable.Bennett gives this team way more speed, and has been better defensively (especially in the last 30 games or so). I would say Bennett hurt this team MORE often early on in the season, but over the last 20 games I think Bennett has been better than Brouwer.

You are down to the 4th liners.

I think Brouwer has been a much better player than Hathaway, but Hathaway has made more of an 'impact' consistently. CONSISTENTLY. Would I trade Brouwer for Hathaway? No, Brouwer is of course the more valuable player. However, would I be as upset if Vegas took Hathaway over Brouwer? I would probably be more upset, actually, though I know those two players are not in the same ballpark.

What makes me upset is 4.5 million dollars for a player that is contributing less than a 3.125 Matt Stajan consistently.

I usually LIKE the types of players that Brouwer is supposed to be, but I find myself just thinking he has just been 'meh'. Overpriced, and a team can't have many of those in the lineup. I think it hurts your salary structure. If I am Ferland, I am looking at Brouwer's contract and going "That's what I am probably worth".

Also, honest question: Did everyone who keeps saying that Brouwer will provide his contract worth in the playoffs are just saying so because other people have been saying it? Sure, he improved in the playoffs last year, but taking a quick look and making some rough math in my head, every year prior to last year Brouwer has seemed to DROP in scoring during the playoffs (I imagine a lot of players drop in scoring, so it isn't like this is some sort of negative being tossed at Brouwer).

Point is, there is a better chance that Brouwer will produce less in the playoffs than look like the 2nd coming of Claude Lemieux.

We won't know for sure until the Flames get there, but I also just thought he would improve in the playoffs based both of how he did last season in St. Louis and just thinking that "Gritty guys always do better in the playoffs". Just surprised to find that he has usually dropped, so I am personally not going to expect an improvement.

Brouwer is a 'fine' depth forward who can chip-in offensively, play defence responsibly, drop his gloves and help stick up for the team, and plays a fairly gritty style (gritty, but not overly physical at all). There is nothing really wrong with Brouwer except his contract. He is slow, but he is smart enough to be positionally sound more often than not, so it hasn't affected him negatively much.

It is just unfortunate that in a salary cap world, if a player is not meeting (or hopefully exceeding) his cap hit, than yes, he is hurting the team.

I would like to say that this team is better with Brouwer on it than off of it, but I can't really say it. Chiasson on the 3rd line with Bennett - would that really be worse? Followed-up by a speedy, little ball of hate in Hathaway on the 4th line? It is at best a question mark as to what makes the lineup better in this example (maybe you feel strongly that Brouwer makes this lineup MUCH better and I am out to lunch, and that is fair too).

I just think the best measure of a player's performance is to first figure out if he is overpaid or underpaid, and then try to slot him in under the salary structure (which is of course difficult to do for UFAs). I do find that Frolik is legitimately a top 6 player on the Flames - there are ZERO guys on the 3rd and 4th lines that I think have been contributing more than Frolik has, and Frolik has been contributing more for a lot longer than Ferland has.

Brouwer falls below the third line for me. For 4.5 million, that is just really terrible value. I don't think this team suffers from a lack of leadership either, though one thing that is very understated is that Brouwer will speak up in the dressing room. He did so in Washington.

But... Washington never got out of the 2nd round, and felt Oshie was the superior player to help them do that. St. Louis - who seems to also under-perform in the playoffs - felt that Brouwer coming in at that number anyways was not worth what he brought to their team either. How much is that leadership worth, and how much of it is Brouwer really bringing with him, if teams that should be looking for more of it allow him to leave? I don't know, and it is probably just a rhetorical question to get people to question how much leadership comes down to in terms of raw cap hit.

Brouwer - in my opinion - has been very disappointing and hasn't been really helping this team win, but he hasn't been hurting the team either EXCEPT for his cap hit. That's my biggest (and only) issue with him.

[Samonadreau]

Brouwer has been a passenger all year - even before he hurt his hand so I don't buy that excuse.

Also the comparisons to Frolik last season are absurd - Frolik was on a shutdown line and was .5ppg and battled an injury himself. Frolik was fine last season Brouwer has been a bust.

I get we needed a RW but 4.5M for a 3rd line winger on the decline is a head scratcher.

Gotta expose him.

[flamesforcup]

Honestly we have a chance for a dark horse line to emerge in the playoffs. Both Bennett and Brouwer have done well in playoffs before so maybe they are this years Ferland? Would be awesome to see and could potentially turn the tide of a series. Id wait to see how he does in the playoffs before writing him off.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

It's pointless to make a true analysis of him, when his worth will be discovered in the playoffs. If he can find another gear, then all is good. Money well spent. If he floats along and does nothing, expose him.

The Flames winning does a lot to mask his deficiencies. But I say wait until the playoffs before passing judgement on him. He still has time to prove he's worth the contract.

Come on, guy.

Brouwer has been the worst Flames forward over the last few games and an overall a big disappointment apart from the beginning of the season. Why is it too early to make an analysis of him as a major disappointment this season??

Also, this narrative of Brouwer being a good playoff performer is largely false as he didn't have any really good playoff performance until last season.

But hey, if Brouwer steps it up in the playoffs then good for him and more people will give him his due if (not when) that happens but he has yet to give me a reason to give him props for very much good work at this point.

[CliffFletcher]

I've been a Brouwer supporter here since the signing, but I have to admit my patience is wearing thin. If he's such a great playoff performer and capable of bringing his game to a next level, you'd think we'd have seen it by now, as the Flames have essentially been in playoff mode since January.

[Red Slinger]

We see situations like this on just about every team, just about every year:

Player signs big deal as UFA and tries too hard to live up to the contract. He has to learn new system, coaches, teammates, city, team staff, etc. Throw in an injury to slow down the progress and kill the players confidence and you get a very disappointing season.

I'm not suggesting that Brouwer will turn it around but it's hardly surprising he's struggled in his first year with the Flames. My guess is that if he's still a Flame next year that he'll have a much better season. It may not be good enough to justify his contract however.

I also recall the negative talk last season about Frolik and it wasn't just ricardo. I think patience with players, especially new players, is important. In an environment like CP where, generally speaking, everything is awesome after a win and everything is terrible after a loss I'd expect nothing less than a complete lack of patience with Brouwer.