The Temporary Foreign Worker program in Alberta

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by GGG

Not quite slaves but close
Do work that citizens don't want to do
Don't have freedom of movement
Don't really have a recourse against their employers so can't get up an leave
Are paid below the rate at which a citizen will do the job
No path to citizenship. Once we are done with them we send them home.

We look down at Dubai and Qatars construction practices because they use effectively slave labour. They are underpaid and don't have recourses against their employer. The only real difference is that our minimum employment standards at least provide a safe working environment.

If we need more people to fill jobs lets do it through immigration. If the conditions of a job for a level of pay aren't good enough for a citizen they aren't good enough for a tfw.

Agreed. The TFW program was creating a second underclass that was paid less.

The program was obviously being abused by employers and I'm glad it's been scaled back. Employers weren't required to try to fill a position with a Canadian and instead found a TFW for less pay and less hassle. Plus the fee was only $100 per TFW if I remember correctly, that is way too low. There should be more incentives to hire a qualified Canadian or more barriers to bring in a TFW.

The labour market should determine what jobs are paid, and bringing in cheap foreign labour undermined this.

Temporary foreign workers are temporary. They should know this coming into Canada. It is not a route to citizenship.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by GGG

Not quite slaves but close
Do work that citizens don't want to do
Don't have freedom of movement
Don't really have a recourse against their employers so can't get up an leave
Are paid below the rate at which a citizen will do the job
No path to citizenship. Once we are done with them we send them home.

We look down at Dubai and Qatars construction practices because they use effectively slave labour. They are underpaid and don't have recourses against their employer. The only real difference is that our minimum employment standards at least provide a safe working environment.

If we need more people to fill jobs lets do it through immigration. If the conditions of a job for a level of pay aren't good enough for a citizen they aren't good enough for a tfw.

Do work that citizens don't want to do - Correct, qualified Canadians were not applying for the jobs. Even if the TFW is best candidate, a qualified Canadian must get the offer first.

Don't have freedom of movement - wrong. TFW absolutely do. They can obtain a new LMIA (formerly LMO) and find a new employer. What they cannot do is accept a job in one location (say Ft. McMurray) in order to gain entry to Canada with the privilege of working, and then relocate to Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, and expect to work without first obtaining a new work permit. This protects the regional domestic labour markets.

Don't really have a recourse against their employers so can't get up an leave - wrong. They have the same rights and recourse that any Canadian does. Employment standards, EI, court action, labour grievance - all those rights are available to the TFW.

Are paid below the rate at which a citizen will do the job - wrong. Only where the system was being abused. The overwhelming majority of employers pay at least the median wage in the market to the TFW. Admittedly, i do see abuse in the pro bono work I do, but the perception that TFW come in at cut rates is absolutely false.

No path to citizenship. Once we are done with them we send them home. - Again wrong. High skill TFW who are here for more than 6 months have the Canada Experience Class, the Alberta Immigrant Nominee Program, and even the Federal Skilled Worker categories available to them for permanent residence. After permanent residence (aka "landed immigrant) is obtained, there is a residency requirement before a person can apply for citizenship.
The bottom line is that one of the best ways for an immigrant to become a permanent resident is through the TFW program.

This issue is highly politicized and the mis-information out there is substantial. The changes Kenny made will put some Alberta business out of business and voters are ticked off. It has made my office so busy that you are now waiting months for even an initial consultation.

I'll sum it up as this: The resources which were spent creating this new policy would have been better spent in enforcing the existing rules rather than creating this new regime.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Agreed. The TFW program was creating a second underclass that was paid less.

The program was obviously being abused by employers and I'm glad it's been scaled back. Employers weren't required to try to fill a position with a Canadian and instead found a TFW for less pay and less hassle. Plus the fee was only $100 per TFW if I remember correctly, that is way too low. There should be more incentives to hire a qualified Canadian or more barriers to bring in a TFW.

The labour market should determine what jobs are paid, and bringing in cheap foreign labour undermined this.

Temporary foreign workers are temporary. They should know this coming into Canada. It is not a route to citizenship.

What I find fascinating about this debate is the amount of mis-information out there. I'm curious where it is coming from.

The labour market does dictate what is being paid to TFW. The rate is set by the Employment and Social Development Canada according to their statistics. The wages can be viewed at the following link:
http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/wage-outloo...ortOption=wage

The wages are also broken into regions for each province. Alberta has 8 regions. Employers who want a TFW must advertise and pay at least the median wage.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GGG

If a Canadian won't do the job maybe we shouldn't bring in slaves to do it.

Increase general immigration rates if this is a systemic issue. TFPs should be for temporary spikes in demand and not a long term solution.

They are not slaves. The get treated really good and are paid market value wages. The owner of the McD's in High River helps them get thier landed immigrant status so they are free to work anywhere they choose. A win win for both the worker and the owner.

[ken0042]

Talk to most TFWs and they will tell you they are not slaves. They can return home if they want, however the living conditions here are not just "better", but considerably better. That- and they not only make enough money to live here, they send a lot of money home to help their families.

The fact that most of us Canadians would not consider their wage to be above slave labour rates is a testament to how much they are needed. Most people would not be willing to work for that wage, because we need a bigger home and more stuff.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Dion

They are not slaves. The get treated really good and are paid market value wages. The owner of the McD's in High River helps them get thier landed immigrant status so they are free to work anywhere they choose. A win win for both the worker and the owner.

I am wondering why anybody should care if a McDs has to go out of business? I am not being flip, I just mean that if you're running a fast food business and the majority of full-time employees are TFWs, who is benefitting from this place being open?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I am wondering why anybody should care if a McDs has to go out of business? I am not being flip, I just mean that if you're running a fast food business and the majority of full-time employees are TFWs, who is benefitting from this place being open?

Customers who enjoy the friendly quick service and interaction with staff.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Talk to most TFWs and they will tell you they are not slaves. They can return home if they want, however the living conditions here are not just "better", but considerably better. That- and they not only make enough money to live here, they send a lot of money home to help their families.

The fact that most of us Canadians would not consider their wage to be above slave labour rates is a testament to how much they are needed. Most people would not be willing to work for that wage, because we need a bigger home and more stuff.

A group of FTW's will often rent a house together to keep the costs down.

Employers will often give them the time off so they can go back home and visit with family.

They come here looking for a better way of life and choose Canada because of the job opportunities and a chance to become landed immigrants and productive members of society.

[craigwd]

I work in the accounting office of a hotel management company that employs several TFW as housekeepers.

I can say that they are paid better than regular staff. That's for a number of reasons: first their LMO contract stated as much. Then the got raises for remaining with the company for such a long time. Whereas many of the transient kids would walk off the job without any notice, the TFW have repeatedly been confirmed as the best workers and easiest to get along with.

We ask for all employees availability and make the schedules accordingly, the TFW get the most hours because they are less restrictive of their time. They get promoted and treated the same as any Canadian.

Of course it would be less costly to not have to go through the program with its fees and the requirement for lower rent, but it's just not possible in some industries.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I am wondering why anybody should care if a McDs has to go out of business? I am not being flip, I just mean that if you're running a fast food business and the majority of full-time employees are TFWs, who is benefitting from this place being open?

In my opinion it will be much more than fast food outlets who will go out of business or halt expansion until this mess is sorted out. There are businesses who desperately need skilled workers who are negatively affected in a meaningful and material way by this, some of whom will shut down. That affects Canadian jobs as well.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Talk to most TFWs and they will tell you they are not slaves. They can return home if they want, however the living conditions here are not just "better", but considerably better. That- and they not only make enough money to live here, they send a lot of money home to help their families.

The fact that most of us Canadians would not consider their wage to be above slave labour rates is a testament to how much they are needed. Most people would not be willing to work for that wage, because we need a bigger home and more stuff.

Thanks to those who corrected my misconceptions about the program but their is something fundamentally wrong with the idea of if a Canadian won't do it for that wage then we will find someone who will.

Also just because they are better off doesn't mean they are being paid a fair wage. My comments were mainly based around nannies in the foreign worker program that people I know used. This is probably more abuse of the program then a flaw with the program.

Still think we should just immigrate people as landed immigrants with movement restrictions rather than the whole tfw process.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by Hugh Jahrmes;

"Hell no, I wouldn't even let my wife work there."

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by GGG

Thanks to those who corrected my misconceptions about the program but their is something fundamentally wrong with the idea of if a Canadian won't do it for that wage then we will find someone who will.

Also just because they are better off doesn't mean they are being paid a fair wage. My comments were mainly based around nannies in the foreign worker program that people I know used. This is probably more abuse of the program then a flaw with the program.

Still think we should just immigrate people as landed immigrants with movement restrictions rather than the whole tfw process.

I don't think it's as simple as 'a Canadian won't do it'. If it's a hospitality or trucking job in Northern Alberta for example it's more a case that a Canadian will do something else - cause they have more jobs than people. And as much as Kenney thinks the market should just correct, there is no practical wage where someone is moving from Calgary - let alone Ontario - to work at a Tim's or drive a truck. It's a question of opportunity not wage.

FWIW Kenney said today that Canadian immigration is the highest in the world (per capita) and there is zero public appetite for more. I agree with your sentiment but it doesn't seem likely to happen.

To me the big issue is that the government took away a program in huge use, and provided no alternative. If they phased it out over years, or could point to a real alternative, there'd be little lasting concern.

[Bindair Dundat]

I had a huge issue related to this topic back in the Spring.
Allow me to elaborate.
I currently am working in new home construction (insulating new houses) in the "Capital region"...
Given the production (workload) forecasts that I was receiving from my (then) largest contract (a local drywall company), I expanded the size of my workforce to meet the anticipated demand during the (traditionally) busy Summer season. This involved the hiring of four individuals from the maritime provinces and a two man crew from Quebec. All Canadian citizens with vehicles and families, who relocated out here to start over, with the expectation of a solid foot in the door.
What happened?
This contractor hired a bunch of dumb-ass Mexicans under LMO and chopped my work load, just as things were getting up to speed with the new hires...
After a couple of rather heated e-mails to the responsible party, he ####-canned them and Re-assigned them until their contracts expired...but it was too late. I have retained TWO of the six I brought out. Two more moved forward with another company in the area (the guys from Quebec, who already knew the gig and had their WCB, GST and Incorporation in place). The other two? No idea.
All hard working, up at whatever time you tell them to show kind of guys...All CANADIAN CITIZENS.
This was forecast to be a great year, but for me? Turned into a wee bit of a gong show.
This is the kind of crap that Mr. Kenney is targeting with his (at face value) draconian amendments. Bringing minimum wage workers in to take jobs from Canadians who WANT to work? That's Bull####.
In my experience? I applaud his actions.
I can pull dozens of Canadians from the east to grow my company...it's as simple as posting an ad on Kijiji.
I no longer work for that Dooosh bag drywaller either...in case you were wondering.
Truth.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Talk to most TFWs and they will tell you they are not slaves. They can return home if they want, however the living conditions here are not just "better", but considerably better. That- and they not only make enough money to live here, they send a lot of money home to help their families.

The fact that most of us Canadians would not consider their wage to be above slave labour rates is a testament to how much they are needed. Most people would not be willing to work for that wage, because we need a bigger home and more stuff.

Sorry, Ken, but it's not a bigger home and more 'stuff' that is motivating people to pursue higher wages.

It's a climate of nearly impossible living wages that make minimum wage jobs unacceptable for most.

Take this in BC for example, where the unemployment rate rose several percentage points after the increase in TFWs:

More than 40 percent of British Columbians live paycheque to paycheque. The average consumer debt in Vancouver is the highest in Canada at $40,174 (excluding mortgage).

B.C. consumers are now borrowing to meet daily living expenses and that should be a big worry, because many families may be one interest rate hike away from teetering over the fiscal precipice.

Too many British Columbians—particularly young people—don't see a future for themselves in B.C. They might be able to find a job in their field, may even be able to make ends meet at the end of the month, but the idea of owning a home and raising a family is moving further and further out of their reach.

No wonder British Columbians react with guffaws when provincial cabinet ministers boldly step in front of the mic and try to explain the latest rate hike or premium increase away as just “a few dollars a month more”.

In the past year, British Columbians have seen a few of those “only a few dollars a month more” hikes, whether it's at B.C. Hydro, ICBC, or B.C. Ferries. Just last month, MSP premiums rose by “only $2.75 per month more” to $69.25 for an individual.

Frankly, it rings a bit hollow what you're saying. No one making minimum wage is looking for a bigger house. They are looking for a house, period. They aren't looking for more stuff, they are looking for the basics necessities, and are going into debt to get them.

“A temporary foreign worker program is unlikely to be a comprehensive solution to labour shortages,” said Dominique Gross, a professor in the school of public policy at Simon Fraser University.

“Although there are clear benefits to the economy if short-term excess labour demand is filled as quickly as possible, the costs of a weakly designed TFW program can be quite high in the medium term.”

Gross came to this conclusion in a recent report that was published by Toronto-based C.D. Howe Institute.

In the report, titled Temporary Foreign Workers in Canada: Are They Really Filling Labour Shortages?, Gross said the federal TFW program clearly has the capacity to generate adverse effects, which need to be minimized by regulating employers.

Gross found that between 2002 and 2013, the federal government eased the hiring conditions of TFWs several times. These policy changes were a response to a reported labour shortage in some occupations, especially in western Canada.

..

To assess the impact of federal government policy, Gross focused on reforms in Alberta and B.C. that aimed to accelerate the process of processing LMO applications and reduce the backlog in certain occupations.

As a result, the number of TFWs employed in Canada jumped to 338,000 in 2012, from 101,000 in 2002.

Gross said these policy changes occurred even though there was little empirical evidence of labour shortages.

More importantly, when there were large backlogs in LMO applications in 2007, the unemployment rates for domestic workers with only some high school education was 7.3 per cent in Alberta and 8.4 per cent in B.C.

In September 2007, an Expedited Labour Market Opinion (E-LMO) pilot project was introduced in Alberta and B.C., in response to pressure from employers.

When the E-LMO policy was fully in place in 2009, the unemployment rate for these low skilled workers hit 13.4 per cent in Alberta and 15.5 per cent in B.C.

Domestic workers with high school graduation experienced similar changes in unemployment rates, although at slightly lower levels.

In 2009, total unemployment for all workers in Alberta was 6.6 per cent and in B.C. it was 7.7 per cent.

In addition, Alberta and B.C. generally experienced more variability in unemployment than the rest of Canada.

For example, before 2007 unemployment rates in Alberta and B.C. declined by an average of 2.9 per cent in the rest of Canada this figure fell by one per cent.

After 2007, unemployment increased by 3.4 per cent in Alberta and B.C., compared to 1.4 per cent in the rest of the country.

As a result, on average, the variation in the unemployment rate during the whole period was 2.3 per cent in the rest of Canada and 6.2 per cent in Alberta and B.C.

This finding suggests that the E-LMO project potentially accelerated the rise in unemployment by about 3.9 percentage points in Alberta and B.C. between 2007 and 2010.

http://www.journalofcommerce.com/Lab...am-JOC060391W/

This is bad for all of us.

[killer_carlson]

right.... it was TFW and not the global economic recession during that timeframe.

Alberta cannot support its high skill workforce demands without immigration, whether TFW or immigrants. There are not enough Canadians prepared to move to meet the retirements and growth in economy.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

right.... it was TFW and not the global economic recession during that timeframe.

Alberta cannot support its high skill workforce demands without immigration, whether TFW or immigrants. There are not enough Canadians prepared to move to meet the retirements and growth in economy.

How many of these hundreds of thousands of temporary foreign workers are skilled and how many are working simple service jobs?

Canada has other avenues for skilled immigrants.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

I knew I wasn't losing my mind. Under the old TFW program that was frequently abused, employers could pay foreign workers 15% below market rates, and over half of applications were "questionable", AKA Denny's, A&W, Tim Hortons, etc...

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04...n_3064389.html

The old system was obviously flawed and needed to be fixed.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Sorry, Ken, but it's not a bigger home and more 'stuff' that is motivating people to pursue higher wages.

Frankly, it rings a bit hollow what you're saying. No one making minimum wage is looking for a bigger house. They are looking for a house, period. They aren't looking for more stuff, they are looking for the basics necessities, and are going into debt to get them.

I'm sorry, but I think we are talking about different things. What I am saying is that TFWs will do the jobs we won't do, and enjoy the highest quality of life that they have ever known.

Your stat about debt just underscores what the attitude of Canadians is- that we need more than we can afford. Whereas most TFWs I know (and I know well enough for their kids to call me uncle Ken), are quite happy with what they have, and are now quite concerned about it all slipping away from them.

When I was working minimum wage jobs, I got by. I had room mates, and yes cash was tight. I used to go grocery shopping with a calculator, and there wasn't always money to splurge on the brand name Kraft Dinner. I made it through, and improved my status in life.

Bottom line is that TFWs are happy with what they are making; given the alternative they face right now of being send home- they would rather stay here and make minimum wage.

The best part of this program as it was, IMHO is that it allows for the hardest working immigrants to eventually become a PR and then a citizen. Isn't that what we want, people who are willing to work for their citizenship?

[ae118]

Originally Posted by GGG

Thanks to those who corrected my misconceptions about the program but their is something fundamentally wrong with the idea of if a Canadian won't do it for that wage then we will find someone who will.



Also just because they are better off doesn't mean they are being paid a fair wage. My comments were mainly based around nannies in the foreign worker program that people I know used. This is probably more abuse of the program then a flaw with the program.



Still think we should just immigrate people as landed immigrants with movement restrictions rather than the whole tfw process.

There is some abuse of the Live-In Caregiver program, but I know many, many families who are great employers and find it invaluable as it's currently set up. I'm quite worried about what changes will be proposed for it. When there's no subsidized daycare and very limited openings, it's a tough situation.