Serial

[Barnes]

Heard about this yesterday and decided to give it a listen this morning while filling the dishwasher. By 6:00pm I had listened to all 8 podcasts plus the 4 recap podcasts from Slate. Yes this podcast is so good there are podcasts about this podcast. There was some discussion in the podcast thread but fatso suggested a dedicated thread so here it is.

Hopefully this thread can get some more listeners as I am interested in hearing what others think.

It is a really interesting, well crafted story. If you don't listen to podcasts it really is worth figuring it all out and giving it a listen. My wife doesn't and she's sitting next to me listening to episode 5.

Ok so what is it?

Serial is a new podcast from the creators of This American Life, hosted by Sarah Koenig. Serial will follow one story - a true story - over the course of a whole season. We'll follow the plot and characters wherever they take us and we won’t know what happens at the end of the story until we get there, not long before you get there with us. Each week we'll bring you the latest chapter, so it's important to listen in order, starting with Episode 1.

What's it about?

On January 13, 1999, a girl named Hae Min Lee, a senior at Woodlawn High School in Baltimore County, Maryland, disappeared. A month later, her body turned up in a city park. She'd been strangled. Her 17-year-old ex-boyfriend, Adnan Syed, was arrested for the crime, and within a year, he was convicted and sentenced to spend the rest of his life in prison. The case against him was largely based on the story of one witness, Adnan’s friend Jay, who testified that he helped Adnan bury Hae's body. But Adnan has always maintained he had nothing to do with Hae’s death. Some people believe he’s telling the truth. Many others don’t.

http://serialpodcast.org

As far as this thread goes, the series is up to episode 8 currently and discussion should be fair game up to there to start. If you haven't caught up, stop after this post. New episodes are posted Thursday's and episode discussion can start after it's posted. Listen and then come to this thread on Thursday's.

I know there are also a number of other places like Reddit where this story is being discussed and information around the case and people involved that has not yet made the podcast is being talked about. If you want to post something like that, I think it's fair to ask that it is identified as such and put in spoiler tags. I'm not sure I want to look at this stuff yet and others might be in the same boat.

[tete]

I've been listening to it since the beginning and it's fascinating! I'll listen to one episode and think "oh yeah, he did it" and then listen to the next and think "hmm... maybe he is innocent...." Really great storytelling.

[Barnes]

The last episode made Jay seem much more likeable but his story still really bothers me. What could possibly motivate him to lie though? The thing that really stood out to me was his relationship with Stephanie and the fact that he would do anything for her. Is he protecting her? But what motive would she have?

[fatso]

Well done Barnes! You are a better man than me!

I too am caught up to episode 8. It is a fascinating look into the criminal justice system, and raises such interesting issues as how memory works, credibility of individuals, and whether 'truth' actually matters at all.

I continue to be conflicted as to Adnan's innocence. Plus there are a number of aspects of the prosecution's theory of the case which simply don't make sense. Jay has told numerous inconsistent stories about an event that, frankly, is a life-changer. I don't see how there could be such variance in re-telling such a singularly important incident.

Adnan continues to claim his absolute innocence and his story hasn't changed over time. Plus his story has the kind of holes/missing details you would expect from someone who really had nothing to do with the key events. To me that is important - he can't prove his innocence because he didn't know he was going to need to. Prior to the show he lost his final post-conviction appeal I believe. Not sure it means much in weighing his innocence claim, but at least he's been consistent.

The notion that Adnan would need help in disposing of Hae's body also hasn't sat well with me. Why would he need help to dig what was ultimately a shallow grave only 6" deep. He was a football player and track athlete. Surely he was capable of disposing of her body himself. Maybe I am wrong about that though.

I was also deeply troubled by the former juror comments which essentially were that Adnan should have proved to them his innocence. That is crazy town! How on earth does someone disprove they did not do something? That reversal of the presumption of innocence was a shocking insight into the flaws of the criminal trial system.

Obviously Sarah Koenig is ahead of us, so who knows what is planned, but I don't see how he was properly convicted. He may have done it, but the evidence does not seem to be there. Then again, the failed appeals suggest otherwise.

I am curious to see how this will end. I believe the goal is 12 episodes. I don't expect there will be some smoking gun leading to Adnan's freedom. Perhaps it will simply be a conclusion that we can never know what happened.

[J epworth]

It's been an amazing podcast, this show has me looking forward to Thursday more than any TV show (well besides GoT) has in years. After listening to episode 8, I needed to go back and listen to episode 1, wow it was like listening to a new episode again, so many clues in that episode that are making me now start to think Adnan might have done it. Don't know what the spoiler etiquette is going to be in this thread so don't want to say more, expect for those that haven't listened yet, START! 1.25 million people listening every week!

[GirlySports]

Why don't we make the spoiler etiquette 6pm on Thursday. We can discuss it after that?

I've thought from the beginning that Adnan did it. Yes Jay's story is a bit sketchy and the police were probably holding back the obvious inconsistancies. But Jay is 17 years old and if all of a sudden you were shown a dead body and thrown into being an accomplice, you'd be hiding a few things too at the beginning.

What gets me most about Adnan is in one of the earlier episodes (3 or 4) he tells Koenig that he doesn't remember that day at all. It was just like any other day. But that cannot be true. He lent Jay his car and phone. That's not normal. He asked Hae for a ride. That never happens because Hae is always going to pick up her niece. Then when Hae goes missing and the police tell him about it, he never calls her once. Yet when he got his new cell phone the night before he called her right away. So he still had feelings for her.

[JonDuke]

Thanks for posting this. Never heard of it before today. Have never gotten into podcasts before today either, but I donwloaded these 8 and am half way through #2. Excited to see what all the fuss is about.

I haven't listened, but I thought it was weird that the victim's name was Hae Min.... Like hymen.

Sorry. It just weirded me out.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Puxlut

I haven't listened, but I thought it was weird that the victim's name was Hae Min.... Like hymen.

Sorry. It just weirded me out.

That weirded you out?

Jesus Christ. Do everyone a favour, don't listen to any episodes, go download The Nerdist podcast.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Why don't we make the spoiler etiquette 6pm on Thursday. We can discuss it after that?

I've thought from the beginning that Adnan did it. Yes Jay's story is a bit sketchy and the police were probably holding back the obvious inconsistancies. But Jay is 17 years old and if all of a sudden you were shown a dead body and thrown into being an accomplice, you'd be hiding a few things too at the beginning.

What gets me most about Adnan is in one of the earlier episodes (3 or 4) he tells Koenig that he doesn't remember that day at all. It was just like any other day. But that cannot be true. He lent Jay his car and phone. That's not normal. He asked Hae for a ride. That never happens because Hae is always going to pick up her niece. Then when Hae goes missing and the police tell him about it, he never calls her once. Yet when he got his new cell phone the night before he called her right away. So he still had feelings for her.

Not only does Adnan not call Hae but Jay doesn't call Stephanie on her birthday even though it was a big deal for Adnan to make sure Jay had a gift. I would like to know more about Stephanie's whereabouts.

[fatso]

Not that I'm convinced of his innocence, but I do think it's interesting that Jay's age is emphasized to explain problems with his evidence, but the fact that Adnan was also only 17 is usually elided.

The way I understand the case, Adnan would have had only the bare minimum time to kill Hae. I'm dubious that he could have done it that quickly given that he had no experience with murder. On top of that, to the extent it was a planned murder, it would have been cobbled together pretty quickly on the prosecution's own case, which also paints him as a fairly sophisticated criminal (getting an alibi ready, entrapping the 'right' individual to help him dispose of the body, devising a ploy to isolate Hae, etc). For the prosecution, he's inflamed to violence as a 17 year old would be, but has the calculating mind of a veteran criminal. That strikes me as a problematic inconsistency in their case.

For those that are convinced of his guilt, what is Adnan's motive for killing Hae? There's the break-up but there's no evidence I can recall that he was particularly fixated on or traumatized by it. There is evidence, though, that they both moved on and by early January he was already seeing at least two other girls. The murder was weeks after they broke up. Why would he go backwards in his life, so to speak, to kill her?

[fatso]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Why don't we make the spoiler etiquette 6pm on Thursday. We can discuss it after that?

Ok, cool. That works for me but I'm easy.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by fatso

Not that I'm convinced of his innocence, but I do think it's interesting that Jay's age is emphasized to explain problems with his evidence, but the fact that Adnan was also only 17 is usually elided.

The way I understand the case, Adnan would have had only the bare minimum time to kill Hae. I'm dubious that he could have done it that quickly given that he had no experience with murder. On top of that, to the extent it was a planned murder, it would have been cobbled together pretty quickly on the prosecution's own case, which also paints him as a fairly sophisticated criminal (getting an alibi ready, entrapping the 'right' individual to help him dispose of the body, devising a ploy to isolate Hae, etc). For the prosecution, he's inflamed to violence as a 17 year old would be, but has the calculating mind of a veteran criminal. That strikes me as a problematic inconsistency in their case.

For those that are convinced of his guilt, what is Adnan's motive for killing Hae? There's the break-up but there's no evidence I can recall that he was particularly fixated on or traumatized by it. There is evidence, though, that they both moved on and by early January he was already seeing at least two other girls. The murder was weeks after they broke up. Why would he go backwards in his life, so to speak, to kill her?

For me if it's almost an impossible timeline for Adnan to kill, then how could anyone else kill her in that timeline. Unless someone somehow got into her car and randomly killed her. The prosecution made a case of Adnan being Muslim and having gone against his parents and communities wishes to date Hae and her breaking up with him crushed everything. Remember Adnan parents showing up at the school dance and how embarrassing that was. He had sacrificed a lot for her. I do find that a bit flimsy. He may have been seeing other girls but he still secretly called Hae the night before to give her his new cell number.

He kept telling Jay he'll kill her, why even say that if there wasn't some sort of hatred inside his body. Think about the breakups you've had. Have you ever told a friend "I'm going to kill her" Even jokingly?

And finally in episode 8, there are hints from the recollection of friends that maybe he didn't kill her at Best Buy and it was in fact closer to the library and that why the girl saw Adnan at the library that day.

The next episode will be interesting.

[fatso]

It's interesting, though, that it was only Jay he told that he wanted to kill Hae. Everything so far turns on whether you believe Jay. And interestingly, Jay didn't tell what happened to mutual friends, just his own (Jenn excepted).

Also, just because it might have been difficult for Adnan to kill Hae within the alleged timeframe, doesn't mean someone else didn't have more temporal access to Hae. A third party who wasn't a student, like Jay, would not have been restrained by the school schedule. Just brainstorming there though... no evidence it was an unknown individual yet.

That said, I'm with you - the bit that Hae might have been killed at the library was a real problem for Adnan, because it completely undermines much of his alibi. In fact, it explains why he got awfully silent when Sarah Koenig tells him in episode 1 that she spoke with the student who saw him in the library that afternoon. That bit from episode 1 is super eerie after hearing episode 8.

Crazy!

[Wormius]

If I am only judging from what I have listened to in the podcasts, it was either Jay or some companion that was closer to Jay than Adnan was. I couldn't understand why Jay would kill Hae either; it just seems like he is covering up for someone.

I don't think they discussed at all whether Hae's parents were wealthy or if she had any money to speak of. Just a robbery that went awry.

[GirlySports]

Episode 9 was really good. It talks about Adnan's entire process of getting arrested and going through the trial system. I think Sarah is now convinced he didn't do it. She also never thought this podcast would take off like it has and people sending her new information.

But the same facts still stick out to me. Why did he get a cell phone the day before and why would he give his car and his new cell phone to Jay on that day.

If the murder didn't happen at best buy then Jay's entire story is bunk but then so is Adnan's because the murder would have happened at the school and later in the day (around 3:15 just before track practice) which takes the
'21 minutes' out of play.

I find it refreshing that there is quite a life in prison. You can take classes, get certificates and make friends and money!

[JonDuke]

I'm all caught up and can't believe we have to wait 2 weeks until the next/final podcast.

[tete]

I think this was the best episode so far. I'm back again leaning toward Adnan didn't do it.

My coworker just sent me this image - makes me laugh

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Episode 9 was really good. It talks about Adnan's entire process of getting arrested and going through the trial system. I think Sarah is now convinced he didn't do it. She also never thought this podcast would take off like it has and people sending her new information.

But the same facts still stick out to me. Why did he get a cell phone the day before and why would he give his car and his new cell phone to Jay on that day.

If the murder didn't happen at best buy then Jay's entire story is bunk but then so is Adnan's because the murder would have happened at the school and later in the day (around 3:15 just before track practice) which takes the
'21 minutes' out of play.

I find it refreshing that there is quite a life in prison. You can take classes, get certificates and make friends and money!

The borrowing of the car doesn't bother me at all. Kids at that age do stuff like that all the time. I remember a time in undergrad I needed to drive somewhere and my roommates friend, who I had never met before let me borrow her car for the day.

I've decided there is no way the murder happened at Best Buy. Which basically means the only way Adnan did it was at the library. Like fatso said, that bit from episode one really sticks out for me now that we have so much more facts. Seems like there was no real effort to prove that he was at the library, possibly because he did not want more evidence shown that Hae was also still right by the school after 3PM.

Here's my tinfoil hat theory. Jay did the murder and had Jenn help him. Hae was Stephanie's best friend, and Jay was cheating on her. Jay was confronted by Hae about it, and Hae was going to tell Stephanie. Jay in an act of passion, not wanting for Stephanie to be hurt by him, kills Hae. Convinces Jenn to help with covering it up. Weeks go by, and when Jenn has the police come to her place to ask about the phone calls from Adnan's phone, freaks out because she doesn't know how to explain the calls. Calls Jay, they decide on the cover story that becomes the prosecutions timeline.

Know there's lots of holes in that, but it's just my gut instinct right now.

[GirlySports]

Borrowing the car sure but the phone too? Why would you give anyone your phone?

So in your theory does Adnan ever see Hae that day? If not, why is Adnan not trying to call Hae once the cops tell him she's missing.

And also I don't think Hae would be confronting anyone when she herself is sneaking around seeing Adnan before and now Don the new bf when her parents forbid her to date.