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Old 05-16-2017, 02:39 PM   #21
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I think it was fairly common for middle class earners to live in 1000 sqft bungalows without cable and not buy new cars. You can't buy a sub-1000 square foot house anymore. Also Monthly payments for 25 year loans have relatively followed inflation. The housing price increase is mostly driven by cheap interest rates.

I do agree with you that subscriptions did use to exist but I do not believe it is as ubiquitous as today and certainly not as convenient to sign up and have recurring payments just do to payment tech.
I disagree strongly with this.

When you purchase a home you have to list your occupation. You can go back and look at records and see what kinds of occupations would purchase homes in certain neighbourhoods. There is a stark difference between then and today. You have entire swaths of Canadian cities where firemen, teachers, policemen, plumbers, etc..could never dream of affording a house. It's different than it was 20 years ago.

Calgary may be a slight exception, as it's actually going through a recession right now. However, if you look at the other major cities, you can see what's going on, and it's definitely different than anything in the past 70 or so years.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:41 PM   #22
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I see what you're saying with the definition, but I don't believe savings and investment are the same. Maybe there's an official definition somewhere and I just need to look it up.

Saving, to me, just means cutting back - being prudent. In the context of the article, it's cutting back on a $20 purchase, which means you've saved $20.

Investing, is taking that $20 and turning that into something else - whether it's into a business, stocks, bonds or whatever asset class.

The issue is that a lot of these rich guys tell you that saving $20 (or even $20 a week) will allow you to pay for a $100,000 down payment.

It won't - the best way to get to the $100,000 down payment is investing and developing new income streams, but noone really teaches people how to get there (ie. giving people a reason to save).
I think we're both essentially saying the same thing. Savings leads to investment which leads to wealth. The majority of people just lack the education to do this properly.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:43 PM   #23
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VACATIONS!

Millennials taking vacations are just crazy. My co-worker and her boyfriend whom she has been with for 3 months are spending Victoria Day weekend in VICTORIA!
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:44 PM   #24
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The guy is right but also massively understates the financial climate we live in, in the 50's people lived in a small 2 or 3 bedroom house with 4 or 5 kids, they bunked three kids in one room parents in the main bedroom, they had one second hand car that they kept on the road for years, holidays consisted of driving to relatives who lived somewhere else and sleeping in a tent in the back yard dad worked, mum probably didn't and they spent almost no money beyond rent/mortgage and food.

By todays standards that's utter destitute poverty, by 1950's standards that's a good life.

I always get annoyed at Vancouverites who complain about their inability to buy a house in Vancouver, what they mean is they don't want to buy a ####ty old townhome in Abbotsford and commute like their parents would have done without even thinking about it
I think you're missing a generation in your analysis. What you're referring to is true of the parents of the baby boomers.

The issue is with baby boomers, who when they reached adulthood bought nice homes, had good wages, etc...They are continuing to get richer and richer, and the generation below them is suffering from it. I don't see how the standard of living in the 1950s or earlier is relevant to the issues at hand.

As others have stated, wealth is increasingly concentrated in a few hands. Salaries are stagnant. The cost of capital and labour is huge. Yet, if you were lucky enough to buy a home anytime prior to the last 10+ years, you stand to reap a huge winfall. It's a system that has created false wealth that is then used to strangle anyone looking to get into the market, as they will essentially spend their lives as indentured labourers. Housing is a basic need, and it's not something that can be foregone.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:46 PM   #25
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I think we're both essentially saying the same thing. Savings leads to investment which leads to wealth. The majority of people just lack the education to do this properly.
Load of BS again.

Babyboomers also carry far more personal debt than millennials and are notoriously bad savers and investors.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:47 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by GGG View Post
I think it was fairly common for middle class earners to live in 1000 sqft bungalows without cable and not buy new cars. You can't buy a sub-1000 square foot house anymore. Also Monthly payments for 25 year loans have relatively followed inflation. The housing price increase is mostly driven by cheap interest rates.

I do agree with you that subscriptions did use to exist but I do not believe it is as ubiquitous as today and certainly not as convenient to sign up and have recurring payments just do to payment tech.

Of course you can, its just not called house its a called a townhouse or an apartment
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:48 PM   #27
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VACATIONS!

Millennials taking vacations are just crazy. My co-worker and her boyfriend whom she has been with for 3 months are spending Victoria Day weekend in VICTORIA!
I assume they don't live in Victoria, as if they do this is a lousy example.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:51 PM   #28
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I genuinely wonder how many people when using the term "Millennials" are actually thinking of people between 25-40.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:51 PM   #29
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Well, this is the most tiring thread ever.

Hey Boomers, when you are done fixing the global financial system you thoroughly destroyed with your greed, deferred risk strategies, and outright dishonesty then maybe you can preach to the 35 and under crowd about their breakfast food choices.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:52 PM   #30
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Nonsense. Spending $200 on coffee isn't an issue in an of itself, but it's exemplary of bad financial habits that are all too common amongst younger generations. Subscription services, buying new vehicles financed over long terms, constantly eating at restaurants, spending on frivolous crap etc. are all common examples of wealth destroying habits. Cutting back on these makes it easy to build investment. Furthermore, housing in Calgary is quite affordable right now, to the point that monthly carrying costs of owned property are near parity with rental rates. It's really not that difficult for a middle class earner to own a home right now.

I think this generational economic struggle myth is something created by younger folks to rationalize their poor financial habits as something beyond their control, when that truly is not the case.
Once again, I think Calgary is a bad example, as it's in a recession and there recently was a crazy boom. It's easy for those who can actually get a job to afford a property, yes. However, if you look at other post-recession housing climates, things are relatively unaffordable.

Once again, the spending habits of baby boomers are far worse than any other generation. The amount of personal debt they carry is staggering. Many, despite having the most affluent atmosphere in history, simply don't have enough saved for retirement. They will be turning to CPP, and other social services, which simply won't be able to cope.

Part of me wants a housing crash, but if that happened you'd have an entire generation of destitute baby boomers without anything to support themselves.

For the record, I own a property in downtown Vancouver. So, I've gained immensely from this madness. However, the toll of this mounting personal debt on society is what I want to end. And it is 100% the baby boomers driving it.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by afc wimbledon View Post
Of course you can, its just not called house its a called a townhouse or an apartment
As someone who has never rented and owned an apartment, then upgraded to a townhouse, then to a detached home I will say this.

What's the problem with milennials renting? If they want to eat avocados and go on trips instead of owning a home that's up to them.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:54 PM   #32
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We actually had "Millennial Training" at my office to teach others how to work with Millennials. And of course, it was put on by Millennials who feel that their talents are underutilized in the workplace. They have little respect for seniority in the work place.

Gen Xers are probably the biggest generational losers though. Baby Boomers were able to profit greatly by getting into industries before university degrees were required for anything and many bought homes before the real estate boom. I know a lot of my friend's parents brag about not even having high school educations and making a tonne of money. While Gen Xers have been waiting for Baby Boomers to retire or die in order to move into higher senior positions, the Information Age has again changed industry and has passed many Gen Xers by. Millennials, having been educated in the Information Age, are now often jumping right over Gen Xers.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:54 PM   #33
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No one ever got rich by saving, and very few get rich through a paycheque. Millennials do not get this.

I'm a millennial and I was able to purchase my first home at 26 and I attribute that directly to my parents teaching me the concepts of investing my money that I make through a paycheque when I was in high school. I have peers (ones with well paying jobs) that are still living paycheque to paycheque cause they insist on "pop'in bottles" every weekend, going on expensive vacations two-three-four times a year, and going out for every meal instead of putting money aside and investing to grow it.

Now I'm not one to tell someone how to spend their money and would even encourage to do some of the things i listed above so long as its done in moderation, because you only experience your 20's once. But to go out and complain that "its not fair" that they cannot afford to buy a house is BS. Expectations also need to be tempered, just cause you get to live big and wild on the weekends doesn't mean that you are entitled to the rest of it during the week. Young people need to own up to the decisions they made in their life.

Also we need to start more to teach more economic and financial concepts in school
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:56 PM   #34
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No one ever got rich by saving, and very few get rich through a paycheque. Millennials do not get this.

I'm a millennial and I was able to purchase my first home at 26 and I attribute that directly to my parents teaching me the concepts of investing my money that I make through a paycheque when I was in high school. I have peers (ones with well paying jobs) that are still living paycheque to paycheque cause they insist on "pop'in bottles" every weekend, going on expensive vacations two-three-four times a year, and going out for every meal instead of putting money aside and investing to grow it.

Now I'm not one to tell someone how to spend their money and would even encourage to do some of the things i listed above so long as its done in moderation, because you only experience your 20's once. But to go out and complain that "its not fair" that they cannot afford to buy a house is BS. Expectations also need to be tempered, just cause you get to live big and wild on the weekends doesn't mean that you are entitled to the rest of it during the week. Young people need to own up to the decisions they made in their life.

Also we need to start more to teach more economic and financial concepts in school
So don't buy a house?
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:56 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by PsYcNeT View Post
I genuinely wonder how many people when using the term "Millennials" are actually thinking of people between 25-40.
I sometimes forget I'm a millennial, I feel it should almost be split into two different groupings.

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Old 05-16-2017, 02:59 PM   #36
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i think the issue goes back further than spending habits.

To me the problem stems from everyone having a degree.
A. Degrees cost a lot of money (students graduate in debt)
B. Not everyone with a degree can find a job in their field
C. Wages are stagnant

So most people on their 22nd birthday are at net negative.
How many universities are there in Calgary now? 4? UofC, SAIT, Mount Royal, St. Mary's? Columbia College? Then it goes further into designations.

30 years ago there were less people with degrees. HS diploma then straight into the workforce. Trades, blue-collar work. Even white-collar work at a basic level took just a HS diploma. Good luck now.

So more people started back then at net positive working straight out of high school, saving their money and investing it in cheaper homes.

Today students are in debt, difficultly finding jobs due to abundance of people via for the same types of jobs, and spending too much plus housing prices are too high.
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Old 05-16-2017, 03:03 PM   #37
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No one ever got rich by saving, and very few get rich through a paycheque. Millennials do not get this.

I'm a millennial and I was able to purchase my first home at 26 and I attribute that directly to my parents teaching me the concepts of investing my money that I make through a paycheque when I was in high school. I have peers (ones with well paying jobs) that are still living paycheque to paycheque cause they insist on "pop'in bottles" every weekend, going on expensive vacations two-three-four times a year, and going out for every meal instead of putting money aside and investing to grow it.

Now I'm not one to tell someone how to spend their money and would even encourage to do some of the things i listed above so long as its done in moderation, because you only experience your 20's once. But to go out and complain that "its not fair" that they cannot afford to buy a house is BS. Expectations also need to be tempered, just cause you get to live big and wild on the weekends doesn't mean that you are entitled to the rest of it during the week. Young people need to own up to the decisions they made in their life.

Also we need to start more to teach more economic and financial concepts in school
The issue is that everyone in the younger generation is expected to take a huge step back.

If you are a hard worker, good saver, and find a big income, you should be able to do quite well with that 30 years ago, but will now find yourself at the bottom.

Once again, we aren't talking about people in their early 20s, who spend too much, not being able to afford basic housing. We're talking about people in their late 30s, who've spent a decade working. Do the simple math. If you're a teacher, a nurse, or fireman, making $65k/year. How much can you realistically save after taxes? Now compare that to the average home price in various neighbourhoods.

Even if you never had a coffee in your life...although the concept of a middle class person not getting a morning coffee is something new....I can assure you coffee shops, diners, etc... existed well before this generation and were always well populated.
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Old 05-16-2017, 03:03 PM   #38
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I think you're missing a generation in your analysis. What you're referring to is true of the parents of the baby boomers.

The issue is with baby boomers, who when they reached adulthood bought nice homes, had good wages, etc...They are continuing to get richer and richer, and the generation below them is suffering from it. I don't see how the standard of living in the 1950s or earlier is relevant to the issues at hand.

As others have stated, wealth is increasingly concentrated in a few hands. Salaries are stagnant. The cost of capital and labour is huge. Yet, if you were lucky enough to buy a home anytime prior to the last 10+ years, you stand to reap a huge winfall. It's a system that has created false wealth that is then used to strangle anyone looking to get into the market, as they will essentially spend their lives as indentured labourers. Housing is a basic need, and it's not something that can be foregone.
Patently false
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Old 05-16-2017, 03:03 PM   #39
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So don't buy a house?
My mortgage payments are less than what my rent was prior, I own land and a home that was bigger than what I was renting, located in a central metropolitan area with a growing population in a first world country. Please tell me what I've done wrong.

Concepts like investment, hedging, good debt, bad debt, risk management, assets, depreciating assets, Retirement savings, debt to income ratio's are all things that need to be introduced at a young age.

Compound interest was the one thing the actually did teach in school but hey math is not useful in the real world right so it was ok for most people to ignore that class?
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Old 05-16-2017, 03:04 PM   #40
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Patently false
No, completely true.
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