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Old 05-15-2017, 10:38 AM   #21
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I don't believe she was corrupt, but I do believe some of her connections to corporate America made her susceptible to being labeled as a hypocrite or having conflicting interests. It essentially took away her biggest weapon to attack trump with on the campaign.
that's possible, if only Trump had told his supporters he was going to put all of those Goldman Sachs executives in high ranking government positions, oh wait, he did, he said he was going to drain the swamp, and they believed him.
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Old 05-15-2017, 10:39 AM   #22
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I would go back to 538's 10 part series on what happened in the election. It's really well researched and backed with evidence.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/tag/the-real-story-of-2016/
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Old 05-15-2017, 10:49 AM   #23
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making a lot of money wasn't my point.

My point was, back in the 50's, the auto industry was the biggest employer, and people that were doing jobs that have long been replaced by automation, were making middle or above class wages.

Now, Walmart is the biggest employer in America and people are making minimum wages on part time hours.

Trump aint going to change that by bringing back coal jobs, building a pipeline, and ruining the environment, for sake of the fossil fuel industry making more money.
I agree, the point I was making is that the Walmart workers should have taken their place as the middle class earners, and that Walmart should be paying similar taxes to what Ford used to pay. Instead what has happened is the workers are making next to nothing, while the employer has seen their taxes reduced to almost nothing. Trump promises jobs, but more lower paying jobs isn't the answer. Back in those days the higher tax revenue from businesses was used to build the countries infrastructure, which created good paying jobs, which lead to greater tax revenue and higher consumer spending to keep the economy growing. Corporations were still rich, workers just weren't dirt poor.
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Old 05-15-2017, 10:54 AM   #24
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that's possible, if only Trump had told his supporters he was going to put all of those Goldman Sachs executives in high ranking government positions, oh wait, he did, he said he was going to drain the swamp, and they believed him.
That's another issue, people for some reason believed the things trump said, but people had this mistrust with Clinton. She was always being politically correct which made people question whether or not she was always being honest, while trump saying some of the most ridiculous things ever heard during a campaign actually got people to believe that despite his faults he was the more "honest" candidate.
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Old 05-15-2017, 10:57 AM   #25
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I agree, the point I was making is that the Walmart workers should have taken their place as the middle class earners, and that Walmart should be paying similar taxes to what Ford used to pay. Instead what has happened is the workers are making next to nothing, while the employer has seen their taxes reduced to almost nothing. Trump promises jobs, but more lower paying jobs isn't the answer. Back in those days the higher tax revenue from businesses was used to build the countries infrastructure, which created good paying jobs, which lead to greater tax revenue and higher consumer spending to keep the economy growing. Corporations were still rich, workers just weren't dirt poor.
right, but now the Republicans tell the people, they will bring those days back with tax cuts to the rich and corporations.

I also read an alarming stat this past weekend on how many retail jobs have been lost in the past decade or so. Can't remember the exact number, but it was big.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:16 AM   #26
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right, but now the Republicans tell the people, they will bring those days back with tax cuts to the rich and corporations.
There is a growing movement trying to stop these changes though. People like Bernie Sanders, Robert Reich and Nick Hanuer are becoming increasingly active in getting people to see what is actually going on and how the economy has ended up in the shape it is in. At some point there needs to be a major economic shakeup, it's sad that things almost need to get to the point where people lose everything before deciding to fight for more.

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I also read an alarming stat this past weekend on how many retail jobs have been lost in the past decade or so. Can't remember the exact number, but it was big.
Online shopping. The numbers are true for the retail industry, however there has also been an increase in jobs in parcel deliveries. Now Amazon is testing drone delivery. This is really where the workers/consumers themselves need to take the power back so to speak, they need to recognize the pattern and stop contributing to the problem. If a company is actively eliminating jobs to increase their profits under the guise of "making their purchases cheaper", they need to start shopping elsewhere. It's a pipe dream to expect most people to pay more for something, but if we won't pay the extra couple dollars to have a person deliver your package instead of a drone or to have a person be your cashier at the grocery store, we're really no better than the companies that are trying to profit from taking away those jobs to begin with and we're helping them do it every step of the way.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:29 AM   #27
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I can't speak for others but the things I dislike the most about Hillary are:

-There seemed to be a sense of entitlement around the Presidency.
-She is an uber-political animal.
-She is a political weather-vane. I'm not sure what she really believes in strongly besides women's rights.
-I don't find her to be a particularly effective communicator and she is lacking in leadership skills.

Of course, Trump not only has all of these same flaws but he is much more deeply and broadly flawed. I still can't wrap my mind around why anyone who actually wants the USA to do well would vote for Trump instead of Clinton.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:37 AM   #28
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-There seemed to be a sense of entitlement around the Presidency.

maybe, but she has worked her whole life towards this, she had nothing
handed to her, like say, Donald Trump

-She is an uber-political animal.

?

-She is a political weather-vane. I'm not sure what she really believes in strongly besides women's rights.

disagree, but she didn't have anything too extremist, such as muslim bans, walls, etc. to get the racists and xenophobes all worked up.

-I don't find her to be a particularly effective communicator and she is lacking in leadership skills.

disagree, go watch any of her speeches
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:42 AM   #29
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I think where Clinton also failed was that her campaign platforms were a little too status quo, where trump promised big changes. When people aren't happy with the status quo they will gravitate towards change. The poor and middle class workers are so desperate for change that they couldn't be bothered to fact check or see how they were being manipulated, they just took trump's word for it that he cared about them.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:47 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
-There seemed to be a sense of entitlement around the Presidency.

maybe, but she has worked her whole life towards this, she had nothing
handed to her, like say, Donald Trump

-She is an uber-political animal.

?

-She is a political weather-vane. I'm not sure what she really believes in strongly besides women's rights.

disagree, but she didn't have anything too extremist, such as muslim bans, walls, etc. to get the racists and xenophobes all worked up.

-I don't find her to be a particularly effective communicator and she is lacking in leadership skills.

disagree, go watch any of her speeches
This is probably the number one reason she isn't the President. The world is being swept by radical and populist movements and she was the career politician. Never leaning extreme on either side and played the middle like a proper statesman should, the problem is that is not want the electorate wanted. They wanted change for the sake of change, some misguided notion that a change in President could fix everything.

Macron played the center, but he did it much better than Hillary. He was passionate in his convictions where Hillary pandered to as many sides as she could and came off looking opportunistic instead of measured. She was the most qualified person ever to run for the Presidency, but was exploited by the biggest flaw in Democracy, the will of the uninformed masses.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:55 AM   #31
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Iggy_oi nailed it. If I had to boil down the election to one sentence, it would be "Trump promised change, while Hillary did not".
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:57 AM   #32
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She was offputting to a lot of people. Clearly. You can argue with those perceptions but it's pointless, that's how a lot of people felt when they voted 6 months ago.

History is full of people who might have made decent presidents but public perception did them in. Romney, Mondale, Humphrey...the list goes on. Michael Dukakis lost the '88 election because he looked goofy riding in a tank.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:13 PM   #33
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I remember last year when Hillary was running she was on The Breakfast Club and she said that she kept hot sauce in her purse to try to pander to us black folks. I facepalmed so hard at that.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:21 PM   #34
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She was offputting to a lot of people. Clearly. You can argue with those perceptions but it's pointless, that's how a lot of people felt when they voted 6 months ago.

History is full of people who might have made decent presidents but public perception did them in. Romney, Mondale, Humphrey...the list goes on. Michael Dukakis lost the '88 election because he looked goofy riding in a tank.
Yes, I agree. People for some reason just don't like Hillary. She's had that likeability problem since she was first lady. I had my first inkling she might be in trouble when my Uncle who lives in Seattle said he was going to vote for anyone but Hillary, which shocked me at the time because he had always voted Democrat in the past and lived in Seattle! But yet he really disliked her, for reasons you always hear about -- that she's corrupt and too much of an insider, which always sounded very vague to me. But still, for people to vote for Trump over Hillary is still just so unfathomable.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:34 PM   #35
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Like how conservatives and Republicans moved on once Obama was president?
Exactly.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:52 PM   #36
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Obama won on hope and change. Trump won on fear and change. Hilary bringing out all those elitist celebrities probably didn't help her image as an elitist, either.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:53 PM   #37
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Like how conservatives and Republicans moved on once Obama was president?
Like how Republicans moved on, even after Trump is president? It's nice neither Trump, nor his supporters, every bring up Obama, Clinton, or the election, now that he's in the White House.
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:57 PM   #38
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I think Americans decided that they didn't want to be force fed another puppet president. They were hoping they'd get that in Obama, but didn't and decided that potentially shooting themselves in the foot was preferable to being forced to eat another bowl of ####.
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Old 05-15-2017, 03:06 PM   #39
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Having an entire election strategy of "Women and Minorities hate trump so they will vote for me" may have been an issue....

Apparently no one every asked "What if these people just don't vote at all?"
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Old 05-15-2017, 03:45 PM   #40
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I think Americans decided that they didn't want to be force fed another puppet president. They were hoping they'd get that in Obama, but didn't and decided that potentially shooting themselves in the foot was preferable to being forced to eat another bowl of ####.
Bonus being that they shot themselves in the foot AND elected another 'puppet president'.
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