Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 05-17-2017, 02:03 PM   #101
Wormius
Franchise Player
 
Wormius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Somewhere down the crazy river.
Exp:
Default

Is at grade even an option in Van? There is really no room to run it at grade? Ground level is already densely packed with no good routes along city streets.
Wormius is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 02:06 PM   #102
Locke
ness Monster
 
Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delgar View Post
The West LRT expansion was hugely off budget. This one will be too. It doesn't matter what it "should" cost or how close the city "should" be as the project starts, the fact is, they're going to go way over budget. Anyone suggesting otherwise hasn't watched the history of public projects in Calgary.

Here's one article, about the West LRT.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...ning-to-others

EDIT: And GGG, "Plus/Minus 30%" or "10%"? That's ridiculous. There is no possible way they come under budget. Its always more.
Wait though....what? I thought the whole point of deficit spending during an economic downturn was to get a discount on labour and materials?
__________________

-Killer Sig Courtesy of ATR
Socialist Hegemony of Albertan Territory - Flag courtesy of awildermode

- "Somebody may beat me, but they're going to have to bleed to do it."
- Steve Prefontaine
Locke is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Locke For This Useful Post:
Old 05-17-2017, 02:12 PM   #103
You Need a Thneed
Voted for Kodos
 
You Need a Thneed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormius View Post
Is at grade even an option in Van? There is really no room to run it at grade? Ground level is already densely packed with no good routes along city streets.
Vancouver has an automated system, and is powered by third rail. Either of those is incompatible with any kind of level crossing.
__________________
My LinkedIn Profile.
You Need a Thneed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 02:18 PM   #104
You Need a Thneed
Voted for Kodos
 
You Need a Thneed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
All of them.

In Vancouver it's not even a discussion about which roads to intersect or not. It's all above grade, no question, and no one regrets spending the extra money to have it grade separated.
In Vancouver, they don't have a choice about grade separation. As per above, they can't even if they wanted to. There's lots of good things about Vancouver's system, but having to grade separate any crossing even where one might not be needed isn't one of them.

$300 million + would be much better spent elsewhere. Those 5 or 6 level crossings will not bother anyone.
__________________
My LinkedIn Profile.
You Need a Thneed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 05:21 PM   #105
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
All of them.

In Vancouver it's not even a discussion about which roads to intersect or not. It's all above grade, no question, and no one regrets spending the extra money to have it grade separated.

If this expansion is intended to increase ridership, then it makes sense to do it right the first time.
No if the expansion is intended to increase ridership you lay as much track as possible at the lowest possible cost.

Calgary has the highest transit ridership of a city of its size because of two decisions. Build rail as cheaply as possible and deal with the consequences and secondly cap the amount of parking downtown.

Just compare Edmonton's system and Calgary's
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 06:16 PM   #106
getbak
Franchise Player
 
getbak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Some of the cities I've been to that have at-grade light rail systems...
__________________
Turn up the good, turn down the suck!

Last edited by getbak; 05-17-2017 at 07:43 PM.
getbak is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to getbak For This Useful Post:
Old 05-17-2017, 06:53 PM   #107
edslunch
First Line Centre
 
edslunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
All of them.

In Vancouver it's not even a discussion about which roads to intersect or not. It's all above grade, no question, and no one regrets spending the extra money to have it grade separated.

If this expansion is intended to increase ridership, then it makes sense to do it right the first time.


Wait, do C-trains stop at level crossings? How does it affect ridership? It just pisses off drivers.
edslunch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 07:28 PM   #108
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by getbak View Post
Some of the cities I've been to that have at-grade light rail systems...
And Rome, and Nice, and Berlin...
__________________
Air Canada - We're not happy until you're not happy.
Telus - hold on tight, we're going in dry!
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 09:17 PM   #109
Northendzone
Franchise Player
 
Northendzone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Exp:
Default

They will have to pry the transit ticket from my cold dead hands before I ride a c-train line with at grade crossings.....
__________________
I really like bikes and bike related discussions......
Northendzone is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 09:12 AM   #110
CroFlames
Franchise Player
 
CroFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by getbak View Post
Some of the cities I've been to that have at-grade light rail systems...
Are you arguing we should build 100% of the c-train at grade? Works really well in the NE doesn't it.

By the way, Munich has a very robust underground subway system (over 100 km of track). I'm pretty sure Boston is subway also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
And Rome, and Nice, and Berlin...
Berlin also has a huge subway system. They have tram service in some parts of the city. I've never been to Rome, but a quick wiki shows that they use a subway also. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Metro
CroFlames is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 09:21 AM   #111
Regorium
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

We're arguing that at-grade light rail isn't the crazy idea you think it is.

Having several at-grade crossings in industrial areas is totally fine and an efficient use of tax dollars.
Regorium is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Regorium For This Useful Post:
Old 05-18-2017, 09:23 AM   #112
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

And our system will have both as well. The point is, just becuase it isn't grade separated, doesn't mean it is horrible, or that other cities don't do it as well.
__________________
Air Canada - We're not happy until you're not happy.
Telus - hold on tight, we're going in dry!
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 10:36 AM   #113
Since1984
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
Are you arguing we should build 100% of the c-train at grade? Works really well in the NE doesn't it.

By the way, Munich has a very robust underground subway system (over 100 km of track). I'm pretty sure Boston is subway also.



Berlin also has a huge subway system. They have tram service in some parts of the city. I've never been to Rome, but a quick wiki shows that they use a subway also. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Metro
Also, if people paid attention at crossings we wouldn't have this conversation. I live in the NE right near Whitehorn ctrain station and I love the new crossing more than the damn bridge! I always missed a train because I had to walk an extra half km to get on to the platform.

I agree with the city that at-grade transit is cheaper and is worth cutting the cost. I foresee more avoidable deaths at train crossings but I am fine with this. Long live the humans that actually pay attention to the flashing lights and bells that go off like crazy to warn pedestrians.
Since1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 10:54 AM   #114
jwslam
Backup Goalie
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Since1984 View Post
I agree with the city that at-grade transit is cheaper and is worth cutting the cost. I foresee more avoidable deaths at train crossings but I am fine with this. Long live the humans that actually pay attention to the flashing lights and bells that go off like crazy to warn pedestrians.
Also long live those poor train drivers that hit the Darwin award winners, they get to live their lives in psychological pain because we cheaped out on designing against stupid.
jwslam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 11:14 AM   #115
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwslam View Post
Also long live those poor train drivers that hit the Darwin award winners, they get to live their lives in psychological pain because we cheaped out on designing against stupid.
Good excuse for robo-trains! Conscience free Darwin mobile.
__________________
Air Canada - We're not happy until you're not happy.
Telus - hold on tight, we're going in dry!
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Fuzz For This Useful Post:
Old 05-18-2017, 12:28 PM   #116
Wormius
Franchise Player
 
Wormius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Somewhere down the crazy river.
Exp:
Default

Trap doors are the only solution. As soon as the train approaches an intersection, a trap door underneath opens up and the jaywalker lands safely below, where the other trapped jaywalkers are held.

I think the idea of timing the trains so that ones travelling towards each other are spaced enough apart at intersections that visibility is more obvious would be good. It seems like a lot of these are people just assuming there is no other train when they walk out from behind the train nearest them. I don't know is that can even be done though with the number of the trains in service at any one time, like set it up so that no train crosses another within 1 minute of each other at an intersection. Is that even feasible?
Wormius is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 12:31 PM   #117
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwslam View Post
Also long live those poor train drivers that hit the Darwin award winners, they get to live their lives in psychological pain because we cheaped out on designing against stupid.
300 million to save 1 life per year is a bad investment. At 5% return that is 15 million per life saved. Even if we consider the drivers life completely ruined that's 7.5 million per life saved.

You can save more lives on other projects with that money.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
Old 05-19-2017, 08:08 AM   #118
frinkprof
First Line Centre
 
frinkprof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
All of them.

In Vancouver it's not even a discussion about which roads to intersect or not. It's all above grade, no question, and no one regrets spending the extra money to have it grade separated.

If this expansion is intended to increase ridership, then it makes sense to do it right the first time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
Are you arguing we should build 100% of the c-train at grade? Works really well in the NE doesn't it.

By the way, Munich has a very robust underground subway system (over 100 km of track). I'm pretty sure Boston is subway also.



Berlin also has a huge subway system. They have tram service in some parts of the city. I've never been to Rome, but a quick wiki shows that they use a subway also. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Metro
You have to remember that Calgary's original three lines were built in the 80s when its metro population was 600 000-700 000. Vancouver's Skytrain was started in the mid 80s when its metro population was about double that. Skytrain, since it is automated, has a minimum design standard of 100% grade separation because there can't be driverless trains interacting with other modes. In the North American and even worldwide contexts, 100 year old cities with populations of less than a million simply do not build fully grade-separated rail transit.

Calgary's LRT does not have half the reach or maybe doesn't get built at all if the design standard at those times were 100% grade separation. Edmonton's LRT was built underground in the downtown and languished as a single line for 3 decades due to that costly decision, while Calgary's flourished. It was seen as a mistake and Edmonton is now building its next lines with at-grade infrastructure downtown (which is honestly not a bad decision either).

With the West LRT (finished in 2012) and the Green Line, grade separation is being employed in central areas, with some at-grade crossings in outlying areas. Furthermore, grade separation will be introduced to some crossings on the current system over time. This is a good approach.

Vancouver is moreso a region of multiple contiguous municipalities than Calgary's unicity (where most suburban growth is contained within the central municipality). Surrey, a Vancouver bedroom city that has a Skytrain line running to it (the original Expo line) could be seen as a comparable to Calgary's deep southeast greater McKenzie Towne. Surrey is actually planning to build at-grade LRT radiating out from the end of the Expo Skytrain line (map and rendering below):

Spoiler!


The capital outlay for the fully-grade separated Skytrain is too much for these outlying areas as opposed to having some at grade crossings with surface-running LRT. The LRT option is just fine to effectively serve places like Surrey and McKenzie Towne. The Evergreen line to Port Coquitlam was also contemplated as at-grade LRT before being built as Skytrain.
__________________
All Things Beltline

Transit Camp
frinkprof is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to frinkprof For This Useful Post:
Old 05-19-2017, 09:26 AM   #119
GirlySports
Franchise Player
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

at least we're not ho chi minh city. Metro completion delayed 5 years at 5 times the cost
They are trying to build 6 lines at once.

article from 1 year ago. https://saigoneer.com/saigon-develop...y-construction

and: https://saigoneer.com/saigon-develop...pensive-metros
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire


Last edited by GirlySports; 05-19-2017 at 09:28 AM.
GirlySports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2017, 11:04 AM   #120
kevman
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
Calgary's LRT does not have half the reach or maybe doesn't get built at all if the design standard at those times were 100% grade separation. Edmonton's LRT was built underground in the downtown and languished as a single line for 3 decades due to that costly decision, while Calgary's flourished. It was seen as a mistake and Edmonton is now building its next lines with at-grade infrastructure downtown (which is honestly not a bad decision either).
This is an unpopular opinion but I believe the Bow River tunnel is a mistake for this reason. I would have rather seen the train come into downtown elevated above grade and had the money to spend on a Crescent Heights station and more north line stations.
kevman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:58 PM.

Calgary Flames
2016-17




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016