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Old 01-05-2017, 10:01 AM   #41
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All I can say is that for my other small start-up we ship things and are paying a "carbon levy" to do this. I am not entirely sure how its calculated, but it will be a significant addition to our costs. At this point I can only say that we're eating it and our intention isn't to pass it on in large part because we ship to other jurisdictions that are not implementing a tax. That means less revenue, ergo less profits and less tax revenue for the Alberta government.

(this isn't my "main" business where I have the sub-forum)
Don't forget the fuel surcharge, too.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:02 AM   #42
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I think it's fair to say that the world's poorest are the ones most vulnerable to the negative effects of global warming (food scarcity, flooding, etc).
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:03 AM   #43
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Looks like the carbon tax rebates were released today, you might have some money waiting for you in your account today!

Carbon rebate eligibility and guidelines
https://www.alberta.ca/climate-carbo...ng.aspx#p184s3
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:07 AM   #44
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I think it's fair to say that the world's poorest are the ones most vulnerable to the negative effects of global warming (food scarcity, flooding, etc).
Who do you think is most vulnerable to an unreliable source of energy? The problem is that the worlds poorest are the most vulnerable to most things.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:08 AM   #45
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I think it's fair to say that the world's poorest are the ones most vulnerable to the negative effects of global warming (food scarcity, flooding, etc).
On the flip side, additional co2 would allow for more vigorous plant growth in arid regions.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:27 AM   #46
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The majority of your suggestions - while all good and desirable - are beyond the means of the poor and most of the middle class. The poor actually profit under this scheme by doing nothing. Which, obviously, disincentivizes making change.


As flawed as the tax and rebate schemes are they are independent of each other. Just cause someone gets some extra cash doesn't mean they have no incentive to reduce (now higher) costs. Agreed big ticket changes are out of reach for many but this doesn't change the fact that higher costs create incentive to look for alternatives.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:27 AM   #47
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Who do you think is most vulnerable to an unreliable source of energy?
Given the role cheap energy plays in the global food supply, expensive or unreliable energy will be disastrous for the world's poor.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:28 AM   #48
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On the flip side, additional co2 would allow for more vigorous plant growth in arid regions.
Yeah, I don't buy the food scarcity argument in a global sense at all.

Changing climate will generally add more water to the atmosphere (more heat > more evaporation from the oceans > more clouds > more rain on the highlands). Wind and heat patterns will shift leading to some drier areas, but those will be offset by more wetter areas. Also, an increase in heat will make for 100's of new kms of arable land in the Canadian, Scandinavian and Russian taigas, and will add length to the growing seasons in more moderate latitudes (more places will be able to have multiple crops per year).

Given the shape of global land geography, increasing arable latitudes in the north will much more than offset any areas affected by desertification (or inland flooding from sea level rise).

Sea level rise will be bad for coastal cities (and whole countries like Bangladesh), but given the momentum in the system, I'm pretty sure they're lost already. Fortunately, globalization of food will prevent large-scale famine, and will provide the capital to move people as needed.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:34 AM   #49
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To someone interested in an intelligent argument, the word "most" means "not all". Someone being a git would naturally focus on the things that are obviously not meant to be part of the "most".



The people in my example buy cars when they need to, not before. Your argument forces such people into a large expense now that they may not be currently planning to make. You have failed to rebut my argument.



Likewise, you are asking people to swallow a large expense they may not be able to afford. "Oh, just tap into your equity" is still asking a person to take on debt.



That notion is irrelevant to any part of my comment. It is obviously a misdirected whine against my comment about the poor profiting from this tax. Well, CBC and everyone else says that some people will indeed receive a larger rebate than they will spend to fund the Carbon Sales Tax. They will, objectively, profit from this tax. Which, as I noted - and you clearly made a conscious decision to ignore because it is inconvenient to you - does not act as an incentive to make "green" lifestyle changes.


I see this as a long term initiative. Of course most people won't jump to spend $$ immediately to reduce operating costs, but over time, when they are faced with replacing things, they will tend to favour more efficient models, and manufacturers will tend to produce more efficient models. Changing habits and buying patterns is a long term proposition.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:54 AM   #50
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I see this as a long term initiative. Of course most people won't jump to spend $$ immediately to reduce operating costs, but over time, when they are faced with replacing things, they will tend to favour more efficient models, and manufacturers will tend to produce more efficient models. Changing habits and buying patterns is a long term proposition.
And in the meantime, cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching in tax revenue for little actual benefit. Increasing regulations for efficiency would do the same thing with less actual impact for tax payers.
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:15 AM   #51
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Yeah, I don't buy the food scarcity argument in a global sense at all.

Changing climate will generally add more water to the atmosphere (more heat > more evaporation from the oceans > more clouds > more rain on the highlands). Wind and heat patterns will shift leading to some drier areas, but those will be offset by more wetter areas. Also, an increase in heat will make for 100's of new kms of arable land in the Canadian, Scandinavian and Russian taigas, and will add length to the growing seasons in more moderate latitudes (more places will be able to have multiple crops per year).

Given the shape of global land geography, increasing arable latitudes in the north will much more than offset any areas affected by desertification (or inland flooding from sea level rise).

Sea level rise will be bad for coastal cities (and whole countries like Bangladesh), but given the momentum in the system, I'm pretty sure they're lost already. Fortunately, globalization of food will prevent large-scale famine, and will provide the capital to move people as needed.
Well, a number of studies disagree. For example: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:17 AM   #52
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And in the meantime, cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching in tax revenue for little actual benefit. Increasing regulations for efficiency would do the same thing with less actual impact for tax payers.
Is increased tax revenue, in a province with a budget deficit, a bad thing?
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:18 AM   #53
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Looks like the carbon tax rebates were released today, you might have some money waiting for you in your account today!

Carbon rebate eligibility and guidelines
https://www.alberta.ca/climate-carbo...ng.aspx#p184s3
Doubtful, I'm probably not going to see any type of rebate because I earn about the 49k for single people.

And even though my energy footprint is a lot smaller then most people. I use very little electricity in my rental, I bought a more gas efficient car, I don't go a lot of places, I'm still going to be punished for it by paying more then I paid last year.

Oh and at some point I'll probably get laid off as well thanks to this governments insistence on slamming everything against business and personal all at once.
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:19 AM   #54
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Given the role cheap energy plays in the global food supply, expensive or unreliable energy will be disastrous for the world's poor.
Will it? Do the world's poor eat much imported food? It's an honest question because I don't know. But I doubt that India's poor are reliant on significant amounts of food imported from Canada and Europe.
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:20 AM   #55
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Well, a number of studies disagree. For example: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet
I'm not sure what to look for here, this is a collection of different topics.

What I was referring to is here:

Plant Growth Surges as CO2 Levels Rise
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:21 AM   #56
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Is increased tax revenue, in a province with a budget deficit, a bad thing?
Yes if they piss it away.

Hey if the government announced spending cuts tomorrow and said that a huge chunk of this carbon tax would be used to get rid of the deficit while at the same time this government was going to bring its spending and operational budget into some form of reality fine.

But we all know that this government is going to pick winners and losers with this money and end up spending it like drunken sailors at a high school prom.
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:21 AM   #57
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Is increased tax revenue, in a province with a budget deficit, a bad thing?
Well it's definitely a pointless thing since none of the "tax revenue" goes towards the deficit, running the province, paying for services, etc. Actually yes it is a bad thing since those items will now be harder to pay for.

Last edited by OMG!WTF!; 01-05-2017 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:27 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil View Post
I'm not sure what to look for here, this is a collection of different topics.

What I was referring to is here:

Plant Growth Surges as CO2 Levels Rise
Sorry, must have screwed up the link. Here is a link to a WP article summarizing the findings (there is a link to the actual study in the article as well): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...tudy-suggests/
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:27 AM   #59
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Is increased tax revenue, in a province with a budget deficit, a bad thing?
In and of itself, no. But the reasoning behind this tax is largely disingenuous.

Also, this government seems to feel that spending cuts in a province with a budget deficit is a bad thing, so it is only fair that some argue tax increases are similarly bad.
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:28 AM   #60
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Well it's definitely a pointless thing since none of the "tax revenue" goes towards the deficit, running the province, paying for services, etc. Actually yes it is a bad thing since those items will now be harder to pay for.
Where does it go? They're burning it?
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