Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[moon]

Originally Posted by valo403

You're hilarious. Again, let's see the support for the 100% fabricated claim that Martin attacked Zimmerman.

It is not 100% fabrication because it is quite possible (and probable) that is what happened.

What is 100% fabrication and proven by facts and witnesses is that Zimmerman did not have MMA training like Duffman keeps trying to throw out there in an effort to continually troll the thread.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by moon

It is not 100% fabrication because it is quite possible (and probable) that is what happened.

What is 100% fabrication and proven by facts and witnesses is that Zimmerman did not have MMA training like Duffman keeps trying to throw out there in an effort to continually troll the thread.

looks like you're jumping to conclusions, now.

Zimmerman had no MMA training? well isn't that interesting. Did Martin have any MMA training, I would guess so, because you Zimmerman supporters keep pointing out how that thug Martin was on top of poor ole George, grounding and pounding him.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by valo403

Such as? Please enlighten me.

There's been multiple posts in this thread, and you're welcomed to search for them, stating that Zimmerman continued to follow after the 911 call, which isn't a fact. Some have gone so far as to say that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, again not a fact. Or the biggest one, that it was racial motivated at all.

I don't believe you've posted a reply correcting them that those aren't facts. Possibly just missed them though.

Originally Posted by FlamingLonghorn

Well it's nearly impossible to have "proof" that a decision was racist. However, the DA didn't decide to prosecute until a year later. The Georgia Supreme court upheld the conviction in which only one judge dissented (the black one). The jury was given improper instructions. The judge didn't allow the victims violent criminal history to be admitted. Could it have been for other reasons? Possibly, but looking at valo's actual stats it seems awful fishy. The fact is those of us who think the justice system is racially bias have an awful lots of stats to back it up. Those of you who don't like to post one case proving it to not be. All Ark2 did was prove that a court in NY is probably not racist and I don't think anyone is claiming every judge in the US is racist. In fact I would think the NY justice system would probably be one of the more progressive. All in all neither of our cases mean diddly squat. Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. The stats that have been posted by valo and mean are huge studies, I will await the studies that counter them.

I'm not naive enough to believe racism doesn't exist in the juridical system. I do believe it can be argued the extent, and the study by valo403, like it says in the article, is far from proving anything. There's small sample sizes, it doesn't take in account the class of each defendant (I'd be willing to bet those getting off are also more likely to be middle or upper class), or even the states in which the crime was committed (split up into SYG and non but that's about it). But sure racism exists, so I'll drop that.

But I think the point of Ark2 Shawnski wasn't with racism in the courts, but racism in the media. There was no where near the attention given to the other trials you both posted, so I suppose that helps prove that. And since the trial you posted of John Mcneil could actually be argued to be racist (and at the very least mishandled) it should have been the one that garnered all that national attention, not the fair trial of George Zimmerman.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Then you were refuting a point that I never made. The people that should feel silly are the people in this thread that unequivocally and baselessly stated that if Zimmerman were black and Martin were white, that Zimmerman would have been charged with murder. That statement has been made numerous times here and, as the Roderick Scott Case has shown, is not reasonable. If you want to argue that there is racial prejudice in the American legal system, knock yourself out, but don't put words in my mouth.

Has it?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moon

It is not 100% fabrication because it is quite possible (and probable) that is what happened.

What is 100% fabrication and proven by facts and witnesses is that Zimmerman did not have MMA training like Duffman keeps trying to throw out there in an effort to continually troll the thread.

It's a theory without evidentiary support, presenting it as fact is fabricating a fact. If I was presenting the opposing theory, that Zimmerman chased down and attacked Martin, as fact Nage would be losing his ####.

[moon]

Originally Posted by valo403

It's a theory without evidentiary support, presenting it as fact is fabricating a fact. If I was presenting the opposing theory, that Zimmerman chased down and attacked Martin, as fact Nage would be losing his ####.

I read there was a witness and that Zimmerman had injuries.

Plus Zimmerman did say it.

People can question how strong the facts are and how relevant they are but it isn't a 100% fabrication because there is zero evidence showing that it didn't happen.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

There's been multiple posts in this thread, and you're welcomed to search for them, stating that Zimmerman continued to follow after the 911 call, which isn't a fact. Some have gone so far as to say that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, again not a fact. Or the biggest one, that it was racial motivated at all.

I don't believe you've posted a reply correcting them that those aren't facts. Possibly just missed them though.

I'm not naive enough to believe racism doesn't exist in the juridical system. I do believe it can be argued the extent, and the study by valo403, like it says in the article, is far from proving anything. There's small sample sizes, it doesn't take in account the class of each defendant (I'd be willing to bet those getting off are also more likely to be middle or upper class), or even the states in which the crime was committed (split up into SYG and non but that's about it). But sure racism exists, so I'll drop that.

But I think the point of Ark2 wasn't with racism in the courts, but racism in the media. There was no where near the attention given to the other trials you both posted, so I suppose that helps prove that. And since the trial you posted of John Mcneil could actually be argued to be racist (and at the very least mishandled) it should have been the one that garnered all that national attention, not the fair trial of George Zimmerman.

None of those are facts, and I haven't presented any of them as such. Some of them are more credible than others, some are largely fabrications. When people have presented non-factual items as if they were facts I have pointed it out numerous times, regardless of the side of the debate they may support. For instance, I have addressed Duff's claims that Zimmerman had MMA training, which is simply not true. Perhaps you expect me to have a 100% catch rate, sorry I haven't met that standard.

For the record, I don't think the verdict was incorrect, but I don't believe Zimmerman's account at all.

As for the media, I don't think it's racism as much as it is ratings. The US media has become increasingly focused on that above anything, so when a case comes up that can move the dial they go all in. I don't know why the other case wasn't viewed as such, it could have been the race of those involved or it could have been that it occurred in the midst of a heavy news cycle.

[moon]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

looks like you're jumping to conclusions, now.

Zimmerman had no MMA training? well isn't that interesting. Did Martin have any MMA training, I would guess so, because you Zimmerman supporters keep pointing out how that thug Martin was on top of poor ole George, grounding and pounding him.

What conclusions?

It isn't really relevant at all if Martin had MMA training because I haven't seen anyone claim that he did and nobody here has used the "ground and pound" phrase more than you. Not sure why you keeping on using it now means others think he had MMA training.

And yes according to his MMA "instructor" he had no training so it isn't only interesting but true.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moon

I read there was a witness and that Zimmerman had injuries.

Plus Zimmerman did say it.

People can question how strong the facts are and how relevant they are but it isn't a 100% fabrication because there is zero evidence showing that it didn't happen.

We are discussing how the confrontation began, not what occurred subsequently. There was no witness to that, and there is no supporting evidence to the claim that Martin attacked Zimmerman. If there was you'd think it would be easy for Nage to provide it on one of the several occasions it's been requested.

[moon]

Originally Posted by valo403

We are discussing how the confrontation began, not what occurred subsequently. There was no witness to that, and there is no supporting evidence to the claim that Martin attacked Zimmerman. If there was you'd think it would be easy for Nage to provide it on one of the several occasions it's been requested.

I haven't seen him presenting it as fact so if he is presenting that way then he is wrong but I still don't see it as 100% as it still is possible and again the most likely story. Plus there is the only witness, Zimmerman, who said that is what happened.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by moon

I haven't seen him presenting it as fact so if he is presenting that way then he is wrong but I still don't see it as 100% as it still is possible and again the most likely story. Plus there is the only witness, Zimmerman, who said that is what happened.

You must not be following the thread much because he's said it at least 5 times.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by moon

What conclusions?

It isn't really relevant at all if Martin had MMA training because I haven't seen anyone claim that he did and nobody here has used the "ground and pound" phrase more than you. Not sure why you keeping on using it now means others think he had MMA training.

And yes according to his MMA "instructor" he had no training so it isn't only interesting but true.

Saying that Zimmerman had MMA training is equivalent to saying that someone who took Jazzercise has formal dance training. Its just not true. He took an MMA fitness course. That basically means that he took the excercise portion of MMA stuff without the actual true fight training.

He might learn some stand up punch and hi ya kick training, but that means nothing in a real fight.

Even his instructor said that his fight ability was 1 out of 10, which probably means a 10 year old could steal his lunch money.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by valo403

As for the media, I don't think it's racism as much as it is ratings.

Well yeah. It just so happens that racism, unfortunately, sells. It's why NBC went to all that trouble of manipulating the audio to make it look like Zimmerman was a racist.

Obviously I don't believe that they are out to get the white-Hispanics but a news story that involves a "white" person killing a black minor was obviously going to get better ratings than a black on black crime.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moon

I haven't seen him presenting it as fact so if he is presenting that way then he is wrong but I still don't see it as 100% as it still is possible and again the most likely story. Plus there is the only witness, Zimmerman, who said that is what happened.

Zimmerman called the police and appeared to handle the situation pretty well, until he basically got attacked by the teen. The teen committed the crime, not the 'weekend warrior'.

What do you call that?

[moon]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

You must not be following the thread much because he's said it at least 5 times.

I haven't been following all along but from what I have been following I haven't seen him present it as fact but just what likely happen as in the post that Valo quoted below with the use of basically.

Originally Posted by valo403

What do you call that?

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by moon

What conclusions?

Originally Posted by moon

It is not 100% fabrication because it is quite possible (and probable) that is what happened

Originally Posted by moon

It isn't really relevant at all if Martin had MMA training because I haven't seen anyone claim that he did and nobody here has used the "ground and pound" phrase more than you. Not sure why you keeping on using it now means others think he had MMA training.
.

I use it because I find it way over the top dramatic. Others have used it many times in this thread. Using it is basically trying to paint an image of Rampage Jackson laying a beatdown on a member of Menudo. I'm glad my many references to it have reduced it to a caricature of what it is, a wannabe vigilante cop losing a fist fight.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by moon

I haven't been following all along but from what I have been following I haven't seen him present it as fact but just what likely happen as in the post that Valo quoted below with the use of basically.

lol, are you a lawyer?

the use of basically

, too funny.

[moon]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

lol, are you a lawyer? , too funny.

Nope.

Didn't realize you had to be to comment on the case.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moon

I haven't been following all along but from what I have been following I haven't seen him present it as fact but just what likely happen as in the post that Valo quoted below with the use of basically.

So if I were to say that basically Martin was walking home minding his own business when Zimmerman pursued, approached, confronted and then attempted to restrain Martin, without providing a shred of factual basis for any of that, it's just me coming up with a theory? Based entirely on the presence of the word basically? C'mon man.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by valo403

So if I were to say that basically Martin was walking home minding his own business when Zimmerman pursued, approached, confronted and then attempted to restrain Martin, without providing a shred of factual basis for any of that, it's just me coming up with a theory? Based entirely on the presence of the word basically? C'mon man.

basically.