[News] Nieuwendyk - Forever a Flame - March 7th Ceremony

[CliffFletcher]

There's some serious underestimation of Niewendyk going on in this thread. Probably a generational thing. If you remember when he not only won the Calder, but spent his rookie season chasing the record for goals in a season by a rookie, you know what I mean. Imagine if Monahan had 48 goals so far this season and every game you were tracking his pace against Selanne's record of 76.

The guy was the third-fasted player in NHL history to reach 100 goals, behind only Bossy and Richard. And he was excellent defensively, a face-off man and penalty killer, trusted with shutting down top opposing players when holding a lead.

Niewendyk was all class his time here. Eminently coachable, great team-mate, well-spoken, squeeky-clean off the ice. Praised by everyone he played with for his unselfish approach to the game. In his final seasons as a Flames he had to carry a steeply declining franchise that sold off most of its assets in a uneven NHL playing field. The esteem he's held in by every other franchise he's played for speaks volumes. There was almost a player mutiny in Dallas after he was traded.

As for the contract holdout, I doubt 90 per cent of fans who remember the Cup win are even aware of it. And most of the the rest don't care. It's only relevant to about 50 bitter uberfans.

[redforever]

^^^
Great post.

The fact that he got into the Hockey Hall of Fame right away also speaks volumes for him not only as an ultimate hockey player and teammate but also as a human being. I have always thought of and remember Nieuwendyk as a gentleman.

You are right about his first year as a rookie...and I was there the night he scored his 51st goal....in multiple goal fashion no less.

The fact that some are also pushing for both Roberts and Loob to get Flame Forever recognition puts another feather in Nieuwendyk's hat. Their careers were enhanced not only by their talent but also by being able to play with one of the best centers to ever wear a Flames jersey.

For those who choose only to remember that Nieuwendyk refused to play while under contract, I say, let go of your petty grudge and keep in mind Flames management and NHL hockey in general in Calgary at that time.

[dying4acup]

Imagine if a player who had scored 147goals in his first 3 NHL seasons didn't suffer a major knee injury. Sure he recovered enough to be a HOF player, but he was scoring like he could have been better than Lemieux until that injury.

At one point Detroit offered Yzerman for him(after Stevie Y destroyed his knee) and the flames said no.

That's how good Nieuwy was. If you think ovechkin could score goals, joe was historically superior!

[Daradon]

Yeah, was going to come here and ask what the uproar was about, but a few posters have already said it better than I ever could.

I have no problems with Niewy getting this honor. Or the honor in general.

Now I know some people have some problem with the jersey retirement vs FOF program, and I can see it being on of those things that annoy people but I simply ask, what's the alternative?

They are pretty much using the FOF program to do all future retirements. I'm pretty sure even Iggy will get a FOF and not a full jersey retirement. Sure, that's not what happened to MacDonald and Vernon, but only because they hadn't had to think it through up till that point.

The difference is by and large all in your heads. If you look at it as the same thing, it's fine. When you start nitpicking over the details and arguing who should get full retirement and who should just get FOF your missing the point I think. And losing out on the fun of it all.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

Imagine if a player who had scored 147goals in his first 3 NHL seasons didn't suffer a major knee injury. Sure he recovered enough to be a HOF player, but he was scoring like he could have been better than Lemieux until that injury.

At one point Detroit offered Yzerman for him(after Stevie Y destroyed his knee) and the flames said no.

That's how good Nieuwy was. If you think ovechkin could score goals, joe was historically superior!

And he never even suffered that knee injury while playing as a Flame.

He had joined Team Canada after the Flames got eliminated from the playoffs and the injury occurred overseas.

[Huntingwhale]

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by redforever

And he never even suffered that knee injury while playing as a Flame.

He had joined Team Canada after the Flames got eliminated from the playoffs and the injury occurred overseas.

Which ironically...is likely why most Flames fans didn't care that Iginla would miss the World Championships after he had become a high paid star player rather than accuse him of being selfish and not caring about his country.

IIRC, Niewendyk did do a lot of off ice stuff in the community. I remember him being pretty hurt about getting booed when he returned to Calgary for the first time because he felt he had done a lot of stuff in the community and that his quarrel was with ownership, not the fans. Didn't help that MacInnis and Gilmour had both essentially left the team over contracts before him, and at that point the fans were no longer too happy tending to blame players, and not ownership. Than add in that management completely mishandled getting decent assets for trading off any those guys eventually, save getting Iginla for Niewendyk, and Regehr for Fleury later on. Oddly enough deals that Al Coates made.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There's some serious underestimation of Niewendyk going on in this thread. Probably a generational thing. If you remember when he not only won the Calder, but spent his rookie season chasing the record for goals in a season by a rookie, you know what I mean. Imagine if Monahan had 48 goals so far this season and every game you were tracking his pace against Selanne's record of 76.

To be fair Nieuwendyk played on a stacked team and was fortunate enough to get a lot of PP time. Not that he didn't deserve obviously. If Monahan got those opportunities hi sproduction would at least double.

Like others have said I think Forever a Flame should be used for guys like Nieuwendyk. He wasn't around long enough to get the jersey retirement.

Fleury will join him in a couple of years.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

Imagine if a player who had scored 147goals in his first 3 NHL seasons didn't suffer a major knee injury. Sure he recovered enough to be a HOF player, but he was scoring like he could have been better than Lemieux until that injury.

At one point Detroit offered Yzerman for him(after Stevie Y destroyed his knee) and the flames said no.

That's how good Nieuwy was. If you think ovechkin could score goals, joe was historically superior!

Nope.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Which ironically...is likely why most Flames fans didn't care that Iginla would miss the World Championships after he had become a high paid star player rather than accuse him of being selfish and not caring about his country.

IIRC, Niewendyk did do a lot of off ice stuff in the community. I remember him being pretty hurt about getting booed when he returned to Calgary for the first time because he felt he had done a lot of stuff in the community and that his quarrel was with ownership, not the fans. Didn't help that MacInnis and Gilmour had both essentially left the team over contracts before him, and at that point the fans were no longer too happy tending to blame players, and not ownership. Than add in that management completely mishandled getting decent assets for trading off any those guys eventually, save getting Iginla for Niewendyk, and Regehr for Fleury later on. Oddly enough deals that Al Coates made.

He was honored with the King Clancey award for leadership and contributions to the Calgary community, both on and off the ice.

Some don't feel he was here long enough to be recognized as Forever a Flame but he was here just about the same length of time as Kipper was.

[CaramonLS]

The FOF program is essentially lowering the bar for the organization. I do admit that the Flames are in a pretty unique position, especially compared others, where they managed to assemble some HOF talent, yet not be able to keep it together save for a few players.

Lots of great players have played for the organization. But all this program does is cheapen the idea of jersey retirement.

It would be like Bettman creating a 'hall of very good', refusing any new entry into the 'Hall of Fame', just to ensure he could give accolades to a guy like Phil Housley.

Joe was an amazing player and had a very good career as a Flame. But that is what is was. Very good. Not great.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

IIRC, Niewendyk did do a lot of off ice stuff in the community. I remember him being pretty hurt about getting booed when he returned to Calgary for the first time because he felt he had done a lot of stuff in the community and that his quarrel was with ownership, not the fans. Didn't help that MacInnis and Gilmour had both essentially left the team over contracts before him, and at that point the fans were no longer too happy tending to blame players, and not ownership. Than add in that management completely mishandled getting decent assets for trading off any those guys eventually, save getting Iginla for Niewendyk, and Regehr for Fleury later on. Oddly enough deals that Al Coates made.

Nieuwendyk learned what every player should always keep in mind: Fans identify with the team. If you screw with the team - such as by holding out in violation of an existing contract - not many fans will side with you. The merits of your belief don't really matter in that case.

The flip side, of course, is that most fans often forget just as easily. Nieuwendyk is really the type of player that I think this honour was created for. A guy who's number would never be retired, but who deserves to be feted by the fans.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fire

Like others have said I think Forever a Flame should be used for guys like Nieuwendyk. He wasn't around long enough to get the jersey retirement.

Nine seasons is a long time in the modern NHL. Very few players stick with the same team longer. If playing basically your entire career for the same team is the criteria for jersey retirement going forward, the number we'll see will be vanishingly small. How long until Chara has played long enough in Boston to have his jersey retired? Will Stamkos retire a Lightning?

[Fire]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Nine seasons is a long time in the modern NHL. Very few players stick with the same team longer. If playing basically your entire career for the same team is the criteria for jersey retirement going forward, the number we'll see will be vanishingly small. How long until Chara has played long enough in Boston to have his jersey retired? Will Stamkos retire a Lightning?

He played in more like 7.5 seasons because he only played 9 games his first season and only played 46 games in his last season. Plus the fact he asked to be traded pretty much eliminates him in giving him a jersey retirement imo.

Chara will play at least 12 seasons with the Bruins so he will be an easy jersey to retire.

Personally I think you need to have played at least 50% of your games with the team in order to get jersey retired.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Nine seasons is a long time in the modern NHL. Very few players stick with the same team longer. If playing basically your entire career for the same team is the criteria for jersey retirement going forward, the number we'll see will be vanishingly small. How long until Chara has played long enough in Boston to have his jersey retired? Will Stamkos retire a Lightning?

The number of jersey retirements should be vanishingly small.

There are only four numbers currently retired in Calgary (Officially or in practice) - 9, 12, 14, 30. The only real omission at this point is 2. I would say four or five in 35 years is reasonable.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Fire

He played in more like 7.5 seasons because he only played 9 games his first season and only played 46 games in his last season. Plus the fact he asked to be traded pretty much eliminates him in giving him a jersey retirement imo.

Personally I think you need to have played at least 50% of your games with the team in order to get jersey retired.

The 46 game played final season was pretty much a full season due to a lockout that shortened the league year to 48 games. So it's 8 full NHL seasons that he was a Flame, and really the 8 best seasons of his career.

[strombad]

I don't think retired jerseys should be handed out to any old great, but rather, ICONIC players.

I'd say no to Joe, but the unofficial/official list Reso posted is pretty much right on point concerning the jerseys that SHOULD be retired.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The number of jersey retirements should be vanishingly small.

There are only four numbers currently retired in Calgary (Officially or in practice) - 9, 12, 14, 30. The only real omission at this point is 2. I would say four or five in 35 years is reasonable.

Don't forget 99.

And I doubt anyone will ever ask for 34. Jamie Macoun was just too good.

[Resolute 14]

The Flames never retired 99. And I don't much care for the NHL's cheeseball idea anyway.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Fire

He played in more like 7.5 seasons because he only played 9 games his first season and only played 46 games in his last season. Plus the fact he asked to be traded pretty much eliminates him in giving him a jersey retirement imo.

Chara will play at least 12 seasons with the Bruins so he will be an easy jersey to retire.

Personally I think you need to have played at least 50% of your games with the team in order to get jersey retired.

Joe Nieuwendyk played more games and scored more goals than for Calgary than Lanny.

Just sayin'...