American Politics Thread: Orange is the new POTUS (Archive)

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by GGG

Trade in general is found to create definite loosers that do not recover. However the net effect of trade is positive for people.

So by bringing jobs back to America you increase the cost of all goods. An IPhone would cost $100 or so more to manufacture in the US.

So everyone pays more for a new phone while a small number of people get jobs

It only works if the consumers in the trade-deficit nation (USA) earn enough money to afford those cheaper goods while said trade-deficit nation makes it up in other areas. Its all about competitive advantage and balance-- you have to have something to sell, otherwise you will not be able to buy. The problem with China is they are an emerging economy with a controlled currency and also have 1 billion plus people to work, many of whom are at the bottom of the heap who earn far less than their American counterparts. These and many other factors have lead to an imbalance. Those cheap iPhones are cheap in price, not person-hours.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

You can sigh all you want Flash, but it doesn't make anything that I said less true. The fact is the Rebel continues to gain followers because there is a perceived echo chamber on the left not reporting the issues they feel are important to them.

Originally Posted by station

Overseas jobs are just one piece though. Most of the jobs have gone due to automation and a changing energy industry. Are the nationalists going to completely put the breaks on progress and technology?

There are two kind of connected points that I wanted to bring up, after all the "disconnected elite" accusations after this election. Here is my question--you have a huge group of people, these rust belt former steel workers/coal miners, other blue collar workers from the rust belt and midwest, and yes, they're worried for their jobs and wellbeings. They want manufacturing jobs back that were eaten up by the move of progress and automation. They want coal jobs back that were eaten up by cheaper/safer forms of energy that we're unlikely to regress back to.

But they're also terrified of the country suddenly becoming far more black, more brown, more Asian, more Latino, more gay, more trans, etc. They're afraid of change that is completely inevitable.

These people are worried, and I get that they're worried. But by the same token, they refuse to see what is plainly in front of them. Progress moves forward. America is getting less and less white and no government can legislate against that diversity.

Their best call is to broaden their horizons--realize that these incoming immigrants and refugees have the same concerns, that they just want to put food on the table for their families and have job security. To realize that gay Americans just want to marry the person they love the same as anyone else. That these people who are different from them aren't out to get them. That success is not a zero sum game in this country. They need help with access to information, they live in communities that need better infrastructure, they are going bankrupt from health problems and they need the ACA to be expanded, not repealed.

These people consistently vote against their own best interests, and attempting to persuade them with facts and logic and statistics just puts their guard up against the "elites." Insulting them just makes them even more rigid.

Calm reasoning doesn't work. Shaming doesn't work. Discussion doesn't work.

So what is the answer? How do you respond to people who will actively vote against their own best interests and flat out refuse any kind of dissension, no matter how valid and fact-based it is?

I'm not attempting to argue, this is an honest request, because I am absolutely surrounded by people exactly like this and I want to effect some kind of change, but I honestly have no idea how we're supposed to handle this.

[photon]

Interior Department officials have been ordered to shut down the organization's official Twitter accounts indefinitely after the National Park Service shared tweets comparing attendance at President Donald Trump's inauguration against former President Barack Obama's.

“All bureaus and the department have been directed by incoming administration to shut down Twitter platforms immediately until further notice,” said an email obtained by the Washington Post circulated to Park Service employees Friday.

Earlier Friday the verified Twitter account for the National Park Service retweeted a post from New York Times reporter Binyamin Applebaum showing side by side images of the crowds at Trump’s inauguration and at President Barack Obama’s record-setting 2009 swearing-in. Obama’s, on the left, shows a jam-packed National Mall while Trump’s, on the right, is more sparsely populated.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...nce-nps-233937

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by photon

Interior Department officials have been ordered to shut down the organization's official Twitter accounts indefinitely after the National Park Service shared tweets comparing attendance at President Donald Trump's inauguration against former President Barack Obama's.

“All bureaus and the department have been directed by incoming administration to shut down Twitter platforms immediately until further notice,” said an email obtained by the Washington Post circulated to Park Service employees Friday.

Earlier Friday the verified Twitter account for the National Park Service retweeted a post from New York Times reporter Binyamin Applebaum showing side by side images of the crowds at Trump’s inauguration and at President Barack Obama’s record-setting 2009 swearing-in. Obama’s, on the left, shows a jam-packed National Mall while Trump’s, on the right, is more sparsely populated.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...nce-nps-233937

Let the muzzling begin!

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by Delgar

It only works if the consumers in the trade-deficit nation (USA) earn enough money to afford those cheaper goods while said trade-deficit nation makes it up in other areas. Its all about competitive advantage and balance-- you have to have something to sell, otherwise you will not be able to buy. The problem with China is they are an emerging economy with a controlled currency and also have 1 billion plus people to work, many of whom are at the bottom of the heap who earn far less than their American counterparts. These and many other factors have lead to an imbalance. Those cheap iPhones are cheap in price, not person-hours.

The thing is that China's economy is already heavily protected. It's only one way free trade. If you want to buy an American car in China instead of one their domestic brands, they add on 20k in taxes. China generally has very advantageous trade deals with every country.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Lol these are so good to watch. Melania could not look more awkward or uncomfortable. I can see why she wants to spend basically no time at the White House.

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/822644726121791490
https://twitter.com/CNN/status/822637918758076416

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Lol these are so good to watch. Melania could not look more awkward or uncomfortable. I can see why she wants to spend basically no time at the White House.

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/822644726121791490
https://twitter.com/CNN/status/822637918758076416

She looks like a prisoner.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Delgar

It only works if the consumers in the trade-deficit nation (USA) earn enough money to afford those cheaper goods while said trade-deficit nation makes it up in other areas. Its all about competitive advantage and balance-- you have to have something to sell, otherwise you will not be able to buy. The problem with China is they are an emerging economy with a controlled currency and also have 1 billion plus people to work, many of whom are at the bottom of the heap who earn far less than their American counterparts. These and many other factors have lead to an imbalance. Those cheap iPhones are cheap in price, not person-hours.

I don't disagree, I'm just saying what the economics show that despite all these things you listed above trade is a net positive. I'd also argue that iPhones are cheaper in hours. The non union zero job security world has increased worker productivity. Most of the $100 is in wages and benefits but the oversees countries are also better at manufacturing now.

[Fuzz]

She looks incredibly pissed at the whole situation, wonder if it was something immediately beforehand, or it is the entire presidency that is an issue.

The whole thing also looks looks ridiculous. Do other countries have their new leader slow dancing before media? What a weird thing to do.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Speaking of incredible pissed at the whole situation, not only will Trump not even come close to Obama's inauguration crowds, it certainly appears the women's march in DC is also going to have better attendance. Media owes it to itself to taunt him over this for a while.

[HotHotHeat]

https://twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/sta...48801798668289

Socrates calls it 2500 years ago.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

She looks incredibly pissed at the whole situation, wonder if it was something immediately beforehand, or it is the entire presidency that is an issue.

The whole thing also looks looks ridiculous. Do other countries have their new leader slow dancing before media? What a weird thing to do.

I am sure finding out that you husband pays filthy Russian prostitutes to piss on him doesn't doesn't keep the flame going in a relationship.

Not to mention all the rape allegations.

[station]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

These people are worried, and I get that they're worried. But by the same token, they refuse to see what is plainly in front of them. Progress moves forward. America is getting less and less white and no government can legislate against that diversity.

These people consistently vote against their own best interests, and attempting to persuade them with facts and logic and statistics just puts their guard up against the "elites." Insulting them just makes them even more rigid.

Calm reasoning doesn't work. Shaming doesn't work. Discussion doesn't work.

So what is the answer? How do you respond to people who will actively vote against their own best interests and flat out refuse any kind of dissension, no matter how valid and fact-based it is?

I'm not attempting to argue, this is an honest request, because I am absolutely surrounded by people exactly like this and I want to effect some kind of change, but I honestly have no idea how we're supposed to handle this.

Witty, I feel your pain. I have people in my family that I care about that are extreme lefty fruit loops and others that are Trump-loving bigots. It's hard not to constantly correct and reprimand these people without always sounding like an elitist jerk.

I decided that I call people out on racism and intolerance. I'll engage in any issue-based argument they want and rigorously defend facts and truth but I'll remain kind and I won't damage relationships over it. But I can't stop them from being afraid of big pharma or the government or immigrants or the gays.

The thing that all these people seem to have in common is lack of education. They seem to be missing even the most basic reasoning skills so changing their mind is nearly impossible. Quality of education should be one of the main issues we fight for because if we're all dumb then it's hopeless. We'll all drown in a sea of mean, celebrity and gossip obsessed stupidity. We need to be kind and smart, spread love and truth, and fight for human rights. We need to raise our kids to do the same, influence their kids in a positive way, and just hope for the best.

[troutman]

Huge crowds of protesters across the world today. Unprecedented.

[Locke]

I dont get why they're protesting now...did they not see this coming?

They're a couple of months late.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont get why they're protesting now...did they not see this coming?

They're a couple of months late.

I think they might have seen it coming. I doubt they threw a dart at a calendar and it just happened to land on this day.

Agree with the message or not, this is an actual thing with hundreds of thousands (millions, possibly) of people motivated to take to the streets. The Great Pumpkin definitely doesn't care, and his half-witted supporters don't either, and it may not make a difference, but it's something.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I think they might have seen it coming. I doubt they threw a dart at a calendar and it just happened to land on this day.

Agree with the message or not, this is an actual thing with hundreds of thousands (millions, possibly) of people motivated to take to the streets. The Great Pumpkin definitely doesn't care, and his half-witted supporters don't either, and it may not make a difference, but it's something.

Why would he? He was elected.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these protester's participation would have been more effective had it been at voting booths on election day rather than in the streets two months later.

It seems to me that they're protesting things that Trump has said in the past, and while thats fair enough, it would have made more sense to hold him to his statements prior to electing him.

Donald Trump: POTUS...hasnt done anything yet.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

The thing is that China's economy is already heavily protected. It's only one way free trade. If you want to buy an American car in China instead of one their domestic brands, they add on 20k in taxes. China generally has very advantageous trade deals with every country.

Exactly. And yet China keeps exploiting North American companies by stealing our ideas and duplicating them for a tenth of the price.

I hate that when we talk about bringing jobs back to North America people automatically think we should produce the iPhone here. That isn't at all what it means.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Lol these are so good to watch. Melania could not look more awkward or uncomfortable. I can see why she wants to spend basically no time at the White House.

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/822644726121791490
https://twitter.com/CNN/status/822637918758076416

She looks like he isn't paying her enough.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don't disagree, I'm just saying what the economics show that despite all these things you listed above trade is a net positive. I'd also argue that iPhones are cheaper in hours. The non union zero job security world has increased worker productivity. Most of the $100 is in wages and benefits but the oversees countries are also better at manufacturing now.

The iPhone is cheaper in labor hours because Foxconn and China have made an agreement to treat their workers like slaves who work, sleep and basically just LIVE to make the iPhone. The factory is setup in such a way that a worker at the iPhone plant has no other life than doing just that.

Obviously that won't happen in North America. And apparently we are okay with that because we love giving Apple billions upon billions in profit every year to keep the labor cost of the iPhone down.