As the author of the blog (and a Kings' fan, which I hope doesn't diminish the quality of my reply) that mentioned how vaccines ended many diseases, and as someone who has a Ph.D. in biochemistry, and as someone who has spent years in medical research and development, improved sanitation is vastly overrated. There were 400 million smallpox deaths during the 20th century spread almost evenly, per capita, between all countries. It was eradicated because of vaccines. It is possible that better sanitation cut the deaths from 800 million down to 400 million, but it was vaccinations that eliminated it. The fallacy of better sanitation is that it only works if its near perfect, and that's impossible. One piece of fecal matter on a hand can be spread to thousands of people in a day. And each of them spread it accidentally. And before you know it, people are dead.
But there are infectious diseases that spread without the quality of sanitation. The Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918 killed vast swaths of health young men. Twenty million dead. Even with today's medicine, I doubt we have tools or facilities to reduce the death rate from such an epidemic.
Simply put vaccines save lives. Whooping cough kills. Measles can cause encephalitis that kills. Polio paralyzes, even if it doesn't kill. The flu in the US during 2012-13 killed 105 children, 90% of whom were not vaccinated.
There is no rational reason to not vaccinate. The side-effects are modest at best, and this is known through clinical research that costs millions of dollars to complete. The anti-vaxxers have NO VALID AND PEER-REVIEWED EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THEIR CLAIMS. None.
By the way, we discussed this thread on a vaccine science forum. Because the comments were so intelligent and rational here, someone asked me if it is because you all are Canadian, hockey fans or both. Because if someone asked this question in the USA, all of the crazy anti-vaxxers would have come out.
To the OP, I don't know what Canadian law is, but in the USA, many states block enrollment even in pre-school unless the student has completed all of the necessary vaccines for his or her age. There are exemptions for religious belief, but even courts today are throwing out those exemptions because no valid mainstream religion is against vaccinations. Even Jehovah's Witnesses who are opposed to all medical procedures, allow vaccines.
I don't know your motivation for not vaccinating your kids, but if you're willing to discuss your reasoning with experts, as long as you're willing to come with an open mind, I can PM you a link to the group. They're mostly women, very civil, and maybe able to gently provide you with information about vaccines. Don't risk your children's lives to myth, junk medicine and pseudoscience.
Dude, I'm not anti-vaccine. Also, how long did you wait have to wait to post after signing up?
Firstly, thanks for posting, and secondly I'd be happy to view any links your published research on the topic and how you came these numbers. Or is it all on your blog? Totally not being snarky.
Yes, there are diseases that are not subject to sanitation... Good point, vaccines reach a broader spectrum of disease.
Again they work together for humanity.
Last edited by To Be Quite Honest; 04-02-2013 at 09:54 PM.
Reason: Good point, vaccines reach a broader spectrum of disease.
I did read it entirely, and thought it explained it perfectly.
It really didn't think green text was required for such an absurdly ignorant post on my part. Especially since I posted like three posts before supporting everything he said in a much less sciencey and smrt manner. Gimme a little leeway here. I think a dog wearing a horse mask is the funniest thing ever.
I wanted to make sure I didn't come across as a some Kings' troll here.
Funny thing is every time I hear of a sports team coming down with the flu, I wonder why the medical staff doesn't vaccinate the whole team early in the season. It should be in the contract for the player. Because once one gets it, it's almost impossible to not to spread it.
My son is in management with the Ducks (previously with the Panthers, a loser loser loser organization). When he becomes GM, I'll tell him to make sure that the flu vaccine is given, probably twice, every season!
There was a controversy here a little while back when the Flames "queue jumped" and got, as some would argue, some special treatment and were able to obtain their flu vaccines more conveniently than the general public. Obviously, the health care system is different in both of our countries, and this was seen as a bit of a no-no in a public health care system.
Just an interesting aside since you brought up flu vaccinations and hockey teams.
Dude, I'm not anti-vaccine. Also, how long did you wait have to wait to post after signing up?
Firstly, thanks for posting, and secondly I'd be happy to view any links your published research on the topic and how you came these numbers. Or is it all on your blog? Totally not being snarky.
Yes, there are diseases that are not subject to sanitation... Good point.
Again they work together for humanity.
I ran across this forum long time ago, as a good place to get rumors about what's going on. As I was hoping that Iginla would come to the Kings (as was rumored), I kept coming here for anything that you guys heard. (BTW, I used to have Kings' season tickets right behind the opposing bench–Iginla would almost always pass out game sticks and pucks at the end of the game to Calgary fans who showed up; I nearly got at Iginla Flames jersey just to score a stick).
I also get pings for any vaccine discussion that happens across the internet. Most I ignore, but I just had to see what was going on in a Calgary Flames forum.
I signed up this afternoon. Was allowed to post within 30 minutes, but I waited.
The specific blog post that was used in this thread was published today. I have an absolute policy of not writing anything that I cannot link to peer-reviewed research. In this case, it was an infographic that used World Health Organization statistics and rolled up into a spreadsheet. I write mostly about bad medicine and bad science, but about 50% of my posts are on vaccines. On many topics, some of my vaccine posts will be in the top 10-20 google hits. If you want specific data about anything with regards to vaccines, I can post it.
If you want the spreadsheet, I'll upload it to my blog so that you can download it. It's filled with data.
I didn't take your questions as snarky. If you want snarky, I can point you to a Facebook page where we pick on the idiocy of anti-vaxxers.
Also, I did not presume that you were anti-vax (what I call vaccine denialism). I replied to your sanitation comment, but then moved on to more broadly challenging some of the claims herein.
But I don't know all of your backgrounds, but this is the best pro-vax thread I've read in years. Seriously. I've been fighting anti-vaxxers since Calgary last won the Cup.
__________________
Scientist. Hockey, baseball, and college football/basketball fan (go Syracuse in the Final Four). Son worked for the Panthers, now works for the Ducks, but I just can't be a fan of the Ducks. Nope. No way. But I get free rink side tickets for every game, so I'll live.
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I actually have to jump in on the sanitation wagon as being huge. Vaccines don't stop bacterial infection, and if I had to chose between the two I would choose sanitation(though glad I have both).
With out proper(modern) sanitation we would still have massive outbreaks of cholera, and ecoli infection rates would be huge. The best example I know of happened in Peru a while back. We chlorinate our drinking water for a very good reason; chlorine has a long persistence time in the water unlike Ozone which is just as good a disinfectant.
What happened in Peru is that they switched to the Ozone over Chlorine in the drinking water which then resulted in a massive Cholera outbreak due to re-contamination of the water while in the pipes. Vaccinations would not prevent that.
But I love modern medical science without it I would be deaf and my wife(Spina Bifida) would have died shortly after birth.
Blow is a Rick Mercer rant on people not getting a Flu shot.
Last edited by Duruss; 04-02-2013 at 10:30 PM.
Reason: Fixing video
But I don't know all of your backgrounds, but this is the best pro-vax thread I've read in years. Seriously. I've been fighting anti-vaxxers since Calgary last won the Cup.
Canada seems to have a lot less crazies per capita than the States. I find Canadians in general tend to be very moderate on most issues. Except hockey, we become insane when we start discussing hockey.
I wanted to make sure I didn't come across as a some Kings' troll here.
Funny thing is every time I hear of a sports team coming down with the flu, I wonder why the medical staff doesn't vaccinate the whole team early in the season. It should be in the contract for the player. Because once one gets it, it's almost impossible to not to spread it.
My son is in management with the Ducks (previously with the Panthers, a loser loser loser organization). When he becomes GM, I'll tell him to make sure that the flu vaccine is given, probably twice, every season!
I think that the flu with the sports teams is likely not the influenza virus that takes weeks to recuperate from but rather it would be a norovirus which can run ramped through close quarters such as a hockey team and for 24-48 hours can have someone laid up pretty good. In terms of actual influenza I don't ever recall any hockey player ever being out of the lineup for weeks with the flu which would happen if they had a respiratory illness.
The thing that amazes me is that they all seem to share the same water bottles on the benches which would be a great way for diseases to spread from person to person.
I ran across this forum long time ago, as a good place to get rumors about what's going on. As I was hoping that Iginla would come to the Kings (as was rumored), I kept coming here for anything that you guys heard. (BTW, I used to have Kings' season tickets right behind the opposing bench–Iginla would almost always pass out game sticks and pucks at the end of the game to Calgary fans who showed up; I nearly got at Iginla Flames jersey just to score a stick).
I also get pings for any vaccine discussion that happens across the internet. Most I ignore, but I just had to see what was going on in a Calgary Flames forum.
I signed up this afternoon. Was allowed to post within 30 minutes, but I waited.
The specific blog post that was used in this thread was published today. I have an absolute policy of not writing anything that I cannot link to peer-reviewed research. In this case, it was an infographic that used World Health Organization statistics and rolled up into a spreadsheet. I write mostly about bad medicine and bad science, but about 50% of my posts are on vaccines. On many topics, some of my vaccine posts will be in the top 10-20 google hits. If you want specific data about anything with regards to vaccines, I can post it.
If you want the spreadsheet, I'll upload it to my blog so that you can download it. It's filled with data.
I didn't take your questions as snarky. If you want snarky, I can point you to a Facebook page where we pick on the idiocy of anti-vaxxers.
Also, I did not presume that you were anti-vax (what I call vaccine denialism). I replied to your sanitation comment, but then moved on to more broadly challenging some of the claims herein.
But I don't know all of your backgrounds, but this is the best pro-vax thread I've read in years. Seriously. I've been fighting anti-vaxxers since Calgary last won the Cup.
Ha ha, I totally sent Thor a "congratulations" pm as I thought he contacted you to post here. The timing was just too good.
I appreciate the response and I'd love to read the information.
My background? It's certainly not yours! I'm a TV editor, but I did a lot of reading on the subject a while back. If you ever need any video work I will totally (inappropriately) pimp myself out.
I am completely jealous about your seats! Good luck this playoff season!
Last edited by To Be Quite Honest; 04-02-2013 at 11:02 PM.
I actually have to jump in on the sanitation wagon as being huge. Vaccines don't stop bacterial infection, and if I had to chose between the two I would choose sanitation(though glad I have both).
With out proper(modern) sanitation we would still have massive outbreaks of cholera, and ecoli infection rates would be huge. The best example I know of happened in Peru a while back. We chlorinate our drinking water for a very good reason; chlorine has a long persistence time in the water unlike Ozone which is just as good a disinfectant.
What happened in Peru is that they switched to the Ozone over Chlorine in the drinking water which then resulted in a massive Cholera outbreak due to re-contamination of the water while in the pipes. Vaccinations would not prevent that.
But I love modern medical science without it I would be deaf and my wife(Spina Bifida) would have died shortly after birth.
Blow is a Rick Mercer rant on people not getting a Flu shot.
I just got over e coli poisoning/infection... Not fun. It took over a month and a lot of acidophiles (Pro-Biotic) and yogurt. You couldn't leave your house because you'd be tied to the toilet every 20-30 mins; it was hell. You only get so many free wipes a day... TMI? Perhaps...
I actually have to jump in on the sanitation wagon as being huge. Vaccines don't stop bacterial infection, and if I had to chose between the two I would choose sanitation(though glad I have both).
I'm not saying everyone needs a Ph.D to post, but please don't spread even more misinformation if you don't know what you are talking about....
As for vaccinations I think that people have the right to refuse vaccinations for themselves and their children. At the same time I also think that it is entirely irresponsible, dangerous and selfish at the same time. I understand that there is fear associated with immunizing your children, at the same time it is the best way that we can prevent the spread of diseases that kill people.
To actually answer your question yes and if memory serves me correct you can be quarantined during an outbreak if you are not immunized according to the public health act, which is linked below.
I just got over e coli poisoning/infection... Not fun. It took over a month and a lot of acidophiles (Pro-Biotic) and yogurt. You couldn't leave your house because you'd be tied to the toilet every 20-30 mins; it was hell. You only get so many free wipes a day... TMI? Perhaps...
That almost sounds like Cryptosporidium? Doesn't E. coli usually get better after a week or 2?
I'm not saying everyone needs a Ph.D to post, but please don't spread even more misinformation if you don't know what you are talking about....
I am standing by my statement, yes there are vaccines for bacterial infections. But they will not stop an E.coli infection from entering your body through an open wound. If you want to argue that do a Google search for the imagery, but I have had to deal with such and had to watch from a foot away as the necrotic tissue was removed.
No current vaccine was going to have stopped or prevented what happened. In the end it took 4 weeks of inter-vinous anti-biotics, a surgery, plus a wound vac to heal what had happened. Also this was not me but someone very close to me.
I still say sanitation before vaccination, but I don't have to choose and use both. I am eternally grateful that I do not have to worry about water borne illness, and it is sanitation that has brought that here.
On a light note the vac machine they used was an amazing piece of technology and basically regrew a heel. Until I saw them use it I had no idea that such a tool existed. It left the flesh of the heel looking almost like wet red velvet cake, so like nothing I had ever seen before.
