Intellectual Honesty...

[Vinny01]

I really wish ownership would allow management to rebuild the team by trading off some high priced assets for prospects/picks and let them tank into the top 3 this year only. This is the year to get a top 5 pick with several top end players up for grabs. I am not one to tout Oiler style rebuild and that is not what I want.

Flames need to make a decision on Iggy, Kipper, Bouw and to a lesser extent Cammy, Tangs, Gio, Glencross. I don't think trading all of them is the answer but I do think we should trade the first 3. Trading Iggy, Kipper, Bouw and bringing back 1st round picks and prospects will allow the Flames to reload quickly and possibly push for the playoffs next year.

Add MacKinnon/Barkov/Drouin to the mix with Sven, Backlund, Brodie the future is looking better. Teams struggling to deal with the cap might be willing to let go of a player if the Flames dangle one of their firsts they acquire by trading the big 3.

When Ken King fired Sutter he called it pushing the reset button but at the end of the day not a whole lot changed. Sure Feaster has been better at his drafting philosophy, trying to bring in young players but he still has tried to win now and failed to capitialize on assets at the deadline. I think Feaster has done a decent job of juggling both as we have better young depth on the farm than we ever had in the past, and the 2011/2012 drafts have turned our prospect pool around significantly. We are still very far away from being a team built to win now or the future however and this is a perfect season to acquire a game changer in the draft and cash in on our aging assets while they still hold some okay value.

[COGENT]

Originally Posted by moon

San Jose has been a top 10 team (usually top 3) team in the league for the past 5-7 years. Why wouldn't they be expected to be good this year?

Outside of a few oddities (LA, TO, Mon) the standings look fairly similar to what many would have thought in terms of who is in and who is out right now.

And there is always a few teams that get off to hot starts/slow starts lock out or not.

The OP was comparing the first 10 games for the past 3 seasons, not entire seasons but fine, San Jose was a poor example. However, you can't tell me that you think Chicago being 10-0-2 is normal or just a hot start?

All I'm saying is the late start has caused some odd records though it seems it's starting to balance itself out.

[FlamesAddiction]

Where you start isn't as important as where you finish.

Bump this thread in 39 games.

[moon]

Originally Posted by COGENT

The OP was comparing the first 10 games for the past 3 seasons, not entire seasons but fine, San Jose was a poor example. However, you can't tell me that you think Chicago being 10-0-2 is normal or just a hot start?

All I'm saying is the late start has caused some odd records though it seems it's starting to balance itself out.

I think that Chicago has enough talent that it isn't shocking, especially since Crawford is giving them the goaltending they have been missing the last couple of years.

I think that every year there are odd things that happen and blaming the system, short training camp, new coach seems like just looking for excuses when it really looks like a team that isn't good enough like most outside, non-biased observers predicted.

[COGENT]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

Teams that came back mostly intact are the ones running out of the gate....not much of a mystery IMO.

No one called it a mystery, just some oddness is all.

[The Voice of Reason]

Originally Posted by neo45

I meant when he inherited the team, the Flames were pretty much universally projected as a playoff team. The second season it was about 50/50 and the third season most people had them in 8/9/10

He still failed all three years though

I know I have only pulled 2 sets here, but I present you the Pre-Season/Week 1 NHL Power Rankings for the Sutter Era Calgary Flames:

2009-2010
TSN: 17
CBC: 3

2010-2011
TSN: 22
CBC: Top 10

2011-2012
TSN: 21
CBC: 17

TSN never seemed very optimistic about the Sutter coached Flames.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Where you start isn't as important as where you finish.

Bump this thread in 39 games.

If you're 4 points out of the playoffs after game 10 (in an 82 game schedule), you have a 7% chance of making the playoffs.

[Matty81]

If Feaster was honest with himself he would have admitted that the Flames at the deadline last year, at best, could have got their butts kicked for 1 playoff round and even that was a stretch. They had no hope of being the Kings and nothing near their depth or talent. He would have dealt Jokinen and any other vets who were not in his plans and we'd already be better this year.

I think intellectual honesty is just his little phraseology to placate those calling for a rebuild and he has no intention of doing anything except patching holes in a sinking boat until he gets fired. I'm just not sure if he is so deluded to really believe that this is a cup contending team or if he is just following ownership instructions.

Too bad because I think the fanbase would tolerate and maybe even be happy with a bit of short term pain for long term gain and rebuilding a little doesn't have to involve burning down the whole thing... If you're smart and cash in on chips like Jokinen.

[COGENT]

Originally Posted by moon

I think that Chicago has enough talent that it isn't shocking, especially since Crawford is giving them the goaltending they have been missing the last couple of years.

I think that every year there are odd things that happen and blaming the system, short training camp, new coach seems like just looking for excuses when it really looks like a team that isn't good enough like most outside, non-biased observers predicted.

It's Chicago's best start in History...

Yup, not using it as an excuse and yes, the Flames just aren't that good. I just think comparing this season to a regular start just isn't a balanced comparison.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I really wish ownership would allow management to rebuild the team by trading off some high priced assets for prospects/picks and let them tank into the top 3 this year only. This is the year to get a top 5 pick with several top end players up for grabs. I am not one to tout Oiler style rebuild and that is not what I want.

Flames need to make a decision on Iggy, Kipper, Bouw and to a lesser extent Cammy, Tangs, Gio, Glencross. I don't think trading all of them is the answer but I do think we should trade the first 3. Trading Iggy, Kipper, Bouw and bringing back 1st round picks and prospects will allow the Flames to reload quickly and possibly push for the playoffs next year.

Add MacKinnon/Barkov/Drouin to the mix with Sven, Backlund, Brodie the future is looking better. Teams struggling to deal with the cap might be willing to let go of a player if the Flames dangle one of their firsts they acquire by trading the big 3.

When Ken King fired Sutter he called it pushing the reset button but at the end of the day not a whole lot changed. Sure Feaster has been better at his drafting philosophy, trying to bring in young players but he still has tried to win now and failed to capitialize on assets at the deadline. I think Feaster has done a decent job of juggling both as we have better young depth on the farm than we ever had in the past, and the 2011/2012 drafts have turned our prospect pool around significantly. We are still very far away from being a team built to win now or the future however and this is a perfect season to acquire a game changer in the draft and cash in on our aging assets while they still hold some okay value.

We still don't know if the results of the draft will turn out better sadly either. Bart has already had a few injuries in his young career, Johnny Hockey is still a crap shoot to make the NHL with his size and Jankowski was an off the board pick who will take yrs to develop and his stats so far are looking just okay at this point.

[ComixZone]

I can't fault this team's effort level. I think everyone (outside of Kiprusoff) is playing up to the level they are capable of.

This team doesn't have centers, and needs to address it.

Not playoff team this year, hopefully get a top 5 pick and land Mackinnon or Barkov.

[BEANZ]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I can't fault this team's effort level. I think everyone (outside of Kiprusoff) is playing up to the level they are capable of.

This team doesn't have centers, and needs to address it.

Not playoff team this year, hopefully get a top 5 pick and land Mackinnon or Barkov.

Did you watch the last two games? The Flames looked terrible in both and had little to no push. The team lacks top end talent and does not compete hard enough to make up for it.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by Psytic

We still don't know if the results of the draft will turn out better sadly either. Bart has already had a few injuries in his young career, Johnny Hockey is still a crap shoot to make the NHL with his size and Jankowski was an off the board pick who will take yrs to develop and his stats so far are looking just okay at this point.

Of course you do not know for sure, but the following playoff teams from last year had a top 5 pick in the last 10 years:

1) Boston
2) Florida
3) Pittsburgh
4) Philadelphia
5) New Jersey
6) Washington
7) St. Louis
8) Phoenix
9) Chicago
10) Los Angeles

Honorable mention to the Vancouver Canucks who got their two best players with top five picks outside of that arbitrary ten year period.

It seems the vast vast majority of teams go through a period where they are basement dwellers before they can become elite again. Pretty hard to rebuild as a mediocre team drafting 13th every year.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by COGENT

It's Chicago's best start in History...

Yup, not using it as an excuse and yes, the Flames just aren't that good. I just think comparing this season to a regular start just isn't a balanced comparison.

While there are always anomalous starts and unsustainable selections of play, the meat is that with a game in hand, Calgary is 7 points back of the division leader and with 2 games in hand, are 4 points back of Minnesota, Dallas, Edmonton and st. louis. So there are 4 teams ahead of the Flames that can be caught with games in hand. Is it likely they will catch all 4? No. Will they catch 2, maybe in 3? With my luck as a fan, probably.

The team that just beat Calgary, Minnesota, has 7 new players in their lineup this year, which included blowing it all up last year prior to the deadline to get 2 'franchise players' that they now build around.

Even then though, that still only puts them on the cusp of the playoffs. Playoff perennials and contenders are way up there, even after going through some unpleasantness of their own (San Jose winless in their last 5, Detroit decimated by injuries, Vancouver playing without a second line).

Now, if you compare their start to their own sample size of the previous 3 years...it's not favourable.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Of course you do not know for sure, but the following playoff teams from last year had a top 5 pick in the last 10 years:

1) Boston
2) Florida
3) Pittsburgh
4) Philadelphia
5) New Jersey
6) Washington
7) St. Louis
8) Phoenix
9) Chicago
10) Los Angeles

Honorable mention to the Vancouver Canucks who got their two best players with top five picks.

It seems the vast vast majority of teams go through a period where they are basement dwellers before they can become elite again. Pretty hard to rebuild as a mediocre team drafting 13th every year and trading down in the first to recoup a second rounder used to supplement the roster.

Just a little addendum at the end there.

[Henry Fool]

To me it's obvious that they should have drawn the line at last season. How many "one more tries" do you need to give before you face reality?

But then if you're not trading away Kipper and Iggy, it wouldn't hurt to have Jokinen right about now. Not the smarterst guy with the puck, granted, but him and Glencross provided a lot of push. And, you know, an actual center. I always felt weird about that. Like change for the sake of change that doesn't make the lineup better.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by The Voice of Reason

I know I have only pulled 2 sets here, but I present you the Pre-Season/Week 1 NHL Power Rankings for the Sutter Era Calgary Flames:

2009-2010
TSN: 17
CBC: 3

2010-2011
TSN: 22
CBC: Top 10

2011-2012
TSN: 21
CBC: 17

TSN never seemed very optimistic about the Sutter coached Flames.

Aren't power rankings done differently?

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by COGENT

No one called it a mystery, just some oddness is all.

ok...not much oddness to it. No oddness at all actually.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

To me it's obvious that they should have drawn the line at last season. How many "one more tries" do you need to give before you face reality?

But then if you're not trading away Kipper and Iggy, it wouldn't hurt to have Jokinen right about now. Not the smarterst guy with the puck, granted, but him and Glencross provided a lot of push. And, you know, an actual center. I always felt weird about that. Like change for the sake of change that doesn't make the lineup better.

Oli Jokinen 31st in goals in the shootout among active skaters (46%)...... Damn could of had him in there instead of Jones.

[zukes]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If you're 4 points out of the playoffs after game 10 (in an 82 game schedule), you have a 7% chance of making the playoffs.

Okay, 14th place with 9 points, however here is how many games teams 13-8 (all within 4 points) have played: 13, 11, 12, 12, 12, 12.

All of those teams are passed or tied with 2 wins in those games in hand.

Now they have to win those games, but for argument sake, let's pretend they somehow had those tow games done already and had won them.

They would currently sit in 8th, one point back from Phoenix (with a game in hand still) and Nashville. I wonder how different this board would be reacting? We, as a collective, are jumping the gun here.