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Old 04-04-2017, 09:50 AM   #261
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I think it's easy to talk about how the Olympics are important to growing new markets but is that actually the case? In what way would participation in this particular Olympics actually help? It's a great sound bite but in reality I fear nothing more than that
I don't know that anyone is going to be able to provide data to back up either point of view. But I find it hard to believe or argue that anybody could believe participation in the Olympics over the last 20 years hasn't exposed a lot of people to hockey who wouldn't otherwise know it exists.

This olympics will definitely create new fans in South Korea and Asia, how many is impossible to tell right now but it certainly won't lose hockey any fans.

Not to mention the impact it has on existing markets. Lots of people in Canada who aren't super into the NHL were drawn more into hockey by Crosby's golden goal. And the argument that it might hurt the NHL is total nonsense. If one team doesn't win because of an injury, another market will, it's a zero sum game.

Ultimately, it doesn't have to be the Olympics even, but a best on best international tournament with broad distribution (that isn't mickey mouse like the god awful world cup) draws people who aren't followers of the NHL in.

Like the WBC baseball, if owners are left to own that tournament, they will ensure it is second priority to their own money making endeavor and looks and is treated badly relative to the stanley cup finals, which is too bad.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:53 AM   #262
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I think this post basically highlights that you are mixing your hate for Bettman, driven by other issues, with the decision made here.

His admittedly disgusting emails about concussion have no relevance on this matter.

And do you think this is Bettman's call? He is the voice of the owners. If he is saying they aren't going - it isn't because Bettman doesn't want to go, it is because the owners don't want to go.
The emails have no relevance on going to the Olympics or not. Someone else called the IOC a terrible organization, which they are. The NHL isn't exactly a beacon of ethical behaviour either.

And I agree, this is as much or more on the owners as it is Bettman. They all just want to maximize profits today and this whole thing was a powerplay to try and squeeze more money out of another organization.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:01 AM   #263
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Pierre LeBrun‏Verified account @Real_ESPNLeBrun 7m7 minutes ago
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Mike Babcock on Olympics: "I'm disappointed. I've been twice. Greatest event you'll ever go to in your life. "
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:03 AM   #264
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At this point I'm starting to think the league likes lock outs. Maybe it's like Schadenfreude for them.
Don Fehr has been angling to opt out of the CBA in September 2019 and precipitate the next labour war already. If you think the Olympics is actually a key issue, you'd be wrong. It's going to be all about Fehr and the union hardliners (some of whom aren't even in the NHL anymore so have nothing at stake) trying to see if they can break the cap and linkage.

In terms of the Olympics themselves, you have to ask yourself why the NHLPA refused to even negotiate the point. That will give you a hint as to what is to come in two years unless the players do what their peers in the MLBPA did to Don Fehr in 2002. They told him to stuff his brinksmanship and get a deal done when he was prepared to cancel another World Series.


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The NHL would never have signed off on a guaranteed Olympics clause is the CBA.....portraying the players as idiots because of that suggestion is silly.
Of course the NHL would sign off on guaranteed Olympics. The NHL even offered exactly that if the union agreed to terminate the mutual opt-out clause for 2019 and ensure this CBA runs its entire term. If the players didn't like that offer, they could have made a counter proposal. They chose to bury their heads in the sand instead. That's their loss.

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Both sides could barely get a deal done that covered the basics, twice. And yes, it is greasy for the league to come out and try to pin it on the players by saying they could have gone had they extended the current CBA. This is solely between the League and the IOC and their inability to come to terms.
No, it's not greasy at all. The union wants to go, but the union stupidly failed to negotiate for all three games in the 2013 CBA. That's on them. The NHL wants a better deal from the IOC, no doubt. But when it was clear that was not happening, the league turned to the players and asked if they were willing to make something happen. The players said no. That's on the players.

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I can certainly say as an enthusiast of the Olympics and amateur sports, I won't be watching the NHL when the Olympic games are on so it makes no difference to me if the players go against the leagues wishes. The truly sad part is that this all but guarantees another lockout with the way the two sides are heading through all of this.
As I noted earlier, a lockout is already a guarantee based on how the union is acting. The Olympics are small potatoes.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:08 AM   #265
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Pierre LeBrun‏Verified account @Real_ESPNLeBrun 2m2 minutes ago
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Ovechkin on Olympics, if he's still going: "Yeah, I didn't change my mind. I'm still going "
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:08 AM   #266
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I don't know that anyone is going to be able to provide data to back up either point of view. But I find it hard to believe or argue that anybody could believe participation in the Olympics over the last 20 years hasn't exposed a lot of people to hockey who wouldn't otherwise know it exists.

This olympics will definitely create new fans in South Korea and Asia, how many is impossible to tell right now but it certainly won't lose hockey any fans.

Not to mention the impact it has on existing markets. Lots of people in Canada who aren't super into the NHL were drawn more into hockey by Crosby's golden goal. And the argument that it might hurt the NHL is total nonsense. If one team doesn't win because of an injury, another market will, it's a zero sum game.

Ultimately, it doesn't have to be the Olympics even, but a best on best international tournament with broad distribution (that isn't mickey mouse like the god awful world cup) draws people who aren't followers of the NHL in.

Like the WBC baseball, if owners are left to own that tournament, they will ensure it is second priority to their own money making endeavor and looks and is treated badly relative to the stanley cup finals, which is too bad.
But do you not think that's the evaluation the NHL has made? That is - if indeed Olympics participation has shown to be an important driver of growth for the NHL, then they would happily make the trade off between what they risk/lose from pausing their season with participation. The fact they aren't going tells me they've made that evaluation and the decision reflects what they concluded.

And just because they don't go to this one, doesn't mean they don't go to another one. The geography just isn't compelling.

I know if I was an owner I wouldn't vote to go.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:10 AM   #267
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Well, that seals it. I can safely ignore the 2018 Olympics
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:11 AM   #268
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Ovechkin who is in Toronto today just said "I'm still going" according to Millard at Hockey Central at Noon.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:13 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Matty81 View Post
I don't know that anyone is going to be able to provide data to back up either point of view. But I find it hard to believe or argue that anybody could believe participation in the Olympics over the last 20 years hasn't exposed a lot of people to hockey who wouldn't otherwise know it exists.
Organizations as large as the NHL will be heavily invested in determining how many tickets they sell, how much merchandise they sell and how many people watch their product. And they will have enough data now to have a really good idea what tangible impact the Olympics offers. We fans obviously don't know what they've determined, but we can make a really good guess based on the NHL spending the last 6+ years saying "we don't want to go unless the deal gets better".

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This olympics will definitely create new fans in South Korea and Asia, how many is impossible to tell right now but it certainly won't lose hockey any fans.
That's speculation. That very same speculation is what led the NHL to get into the Olympics in the first place in 1998. Again, the fact that the NHL wants out indicates that this is just chasing unicorns.

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Ultimately, it doesn't have to be the Olympics even, but a best on best international tournament with broad distribution (that isn't mickey mouse like the god awful world cup) draws people who aren't followers of the NHL in.

Like the WBC baseball, if owners are left to own that tournament, they will ensure it is second priority to their own money making endeavor and looks and is treated badly relative to the stanley cup finals, which is too bad.
You mean the World Cup? Which is itself an outgrowth of the Canada Cup, which was controlled by the NHL and NHLPA and was, for the 70s and 80s, the preeminent international tournament.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:17 AM   #270
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And just because they don't go to this one, doesn't mean they don't go to another one. The geography just isn't compelling.

I know if I was an owner I wouldn't vote to go.
As an owner, you might regret your choice in the off-season if your RFA or UFA signs a one year deal in the KHL or overseas so he has a chance to play in the Olympics. Imagine if Bennett or Elliott decided to use this opportunity to play for an Olympic gold medal??
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:20 AM   #271
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As an owner, you might regret your choice in the off-season if your RFA or UFA signs a one year deal in the KHL or overseas so he has a chance to play in the Olympics. Imagine if Bennett or Elliott decided to use this opportunity to play for an Olympic gold medal??
That risk seems extremely remote.
I don't think players care more about Olympic goal than their NHL career and the millions of dollars at stake with that.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:20 AM   #272
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Evgeni Kuznetsov hopes the NHL still allows them to go but if not, says he intends to still go to South Korea. "it's in the heart," he said
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:20 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Matty81 View Post
I don't know that anyone is going to be able to provide data to back up either point of view. But I find it hard to believe or argue that anybody could believe participation in the Olympics over the last 20 years hasn't exposed a lot of people to hockey who wouldn't otherwise know it exists.

This olympics will definitely create new fans in South Korea and Asia, how many is impossible to tell right now but it certainly won't lose hockey any fans.

Not to mention the impact it has on existing markets. Lots of people in Canada who aren't super into the NHL were drawn more into hockey by Crosby's golden goal. And the argument that it might hurt the NHL is total nonsense. If one team doesn't win because of an injury, another market will, it's a zero sum game.

Ultimately, it doesn't have to be the Olympics even, but a best on best international tournament with broad distribution (that isn't mickey mouse like the god awful world cup) draws people who aren't followers of the NHL in.

Like the WBC baseball, if owners are left to own that tournament, they will ensure it is second priority to their own money making endeavor and looks and is treated badly relative to the stanley cup finals, which is too bad.

I just don't see it. First of all hockey isn't the marquee sport. Figure skating is. Sure if the NHLers had gone it would be fun for Korean fans to be exposed to great hockey for two weeks and then it would be forgotten. Just like Nagano in 1998. Japanese didn't suddenly become NHL fans. NHL hockey is not on tv, which another entirely different problem the NHL has.

Here is the problem with hockey. The World Cup profit goes to the NHLPA/NHL. The Olympic profits go to the IOC. What's in it for the federations? Why would China spend money on hockey? Why would Chinese fan watch this foreign sport that has no benefit for them?

If you want to make Asia interested in hockey? You have to give them a piece of the pie. Not just a one time thing where NHLers come for 2 weeks and then leave.

How is this done? Give Asia a guaranteed sport in the next World Cup and share some of the Asian tv money with them. NHLPA/NHL can't hog everything. Say in 2020 the World Cup is 10 teams with an Asian team. Yes they will get destroyed but just the fight to gain that birth (the fight between China, Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand etccc) would develop home grown talent.

So a 2020 World Cup that has Canada, US, Russia, Czech, Sweden, Finland, Slovakia, Switzerland, (euro qualifer), (asian qualifier) with proper money distribution would be a true World Cup.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:23 AM   #274
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Ovechkin who is in Toronto today just said "I'm still going" according to Millard at Hockey Central at Noon.
I will believe it when I see it. It is easy for Ovechkin to make this meaningless commitment before knowing the stakes. I suspect that the consequences/penalties for participation will be prohibitive, and Ovechkin will ultimately do what all the rest of the NHL players will do.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:25 AM   #275
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That risk seems extremely remote.
I don't think players care more about Olympic goal than their NHL career and the millions of dollars at stake with that.
You don't think the KHL would jump at the opportunity to pay millions of dollars on one-year contracts to pull stars over and grow their league. Anton Lander reportedly signed a huge deal in the KHL and he's an AHLer. You're already hearing guys with contracts (Ovechkin, Kuznetsov) saying they'll go regardless so it's definitely very important to some. Theoretically, why wouldn't an up-and-comer like Lazar or Bennett take more money in the KHL on a one year contract, get more ice time to develop, and get the chance to play for Canada in the Olympics?
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:27 AM   #276
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You don't think the KHL would jump at the opportunity to pay millions of dollars on one-year contracts to pull stars over and grow their league. Anton Lander reportedly signed a huge deal in the KHL and he's an AHLer. You're already hearing guys with contracts (Ovechkin, Kuznetsov) saying they'll go regardless so it's definitely very important to some. Theoretically, why wouldn't an up-and-comer like Lazar or Bennett take more money in the KHL on a one year contract, get more ice time to develop, and get the chance to play for Canada in the Olympics?
Because Russia?
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:30 AM   #277
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Will be interesting to hear what players like Crosby, McDavid, and Matthews will say about this. As Alice said this is going to get "curiouser and curiouser"!
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:31 AM   #278
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But do you not think that's the evaluation the NHL has made? That is - if indeed Olympics participation has shown to be an important driver of growth for the NHL, then they would happily make the trade off between what they risk/lose from pausing their season with participation. The fact they aren't going tells me they've made that evaluation and the decision reflects what they concluded.

And just because they don't go to this one, doesn't mean they don't go to another one. The geography just isn't compelling.

I know if I was an owner I wouldn't vote to go.
I think they do make those decisions based on economics, but I think they consistently do so in a short sighted fashion. And here I don't think they care much about new fans in Asia because they can't easily monetize them in the short term. As a result they saw somebody else profiting and tried to get a piece, failed and torpedoed the enterprise.

They make more money moving their product from peasantvision to premium sports cable obviously and gamecenter type packages. In the long run is that good for the health of hockey? Definitely not as far as attracting new fans (I know they've pushed games onto CBC). How about getting every team into an ultra premium luxury box filled stadium? Makes a lot more money short term but what does it do to your fanbase in the long term when it costs hundreds of dollars to take your kids to a game? Chokes out the ability of lower income and immigrant families to attend. Coupled with equipment and icetime getting crazy expensive for kids to play at the same time it's not a good recipe long term.

I think they consistently choose the path that will make them the most money over a short horizon and are unconcerned with, or too narrow to see that in the long run, hockey is not picking up new fans in other areas of the world and in fact is also losing much of the younger demographic here as a result.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:35 AM   #279
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The Beijing KHL team is averaging like 2000 fans a game. The Japanese didn't care more about hockey in 1998 than they did in 1997.

I think the NHL benefits when they get more Americans interested, and so that's why sending NHLers to Salt Lake City and Vancouver was valuable. Slightly less valuable when the games come on at 2am on the east coast.

That time variation with Asia is just brutal, even worse than Sochi and I'll bet you anything American and probably Canadian olympic hockey ratings declined significantly in 2014 over 2010.

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Old 04-04-2017, 10:38 AM   #280
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I don't know that anyone is going to be able to provide data to back up either point of view. But I find it hard to believe or argue that anybody could believe participation in the Olympics over the last 20 years hasn't exposed a lot of people to hockey who wouldn't otherwise know it exists.

This olympics will definitely create new fans in South Korea and Asia, how many is impossible to tell right now but it certainly won't lose hockey any fans.
There will still be hockey in the Olympics. Does a viewer in Korea or China care or even know if they're watching NHL players? If you watched rugby in the Summer Olympics, would it be more appealing and compelling to you if professionals you'd never heard of were playing instead of amateurs you'd never heard of? Even most Americans who watch Olympic hockey don't follow the NHL. It's something they tune in to every four years to cheer on their team. Like volleyball or rowing. They won't care if Auston Matthews or Ryan Suter don't play.

The people who care about NHLers being in the Olympics are Canadians. The NHL knows this. And we're already a saturated market that isn't going to turn its back on NHL hockey because they didn't participate in the Olympics.
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