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Old 05-23-2012, 09:15 PM   #1
oilyfan
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Default 4 dead on Everest in two days, 10 for the season

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor...nd-Lhotse.html

It fascinates me how man has conquered this mountain but it still kills so many that are either unprepared or just foolishly believe that they can beat it. After reading about the 1996 Everest disaster I had thought that people would be more careful. But the lure of the mountain is too much.

300 climbers tried to summit in one day, with only one fixed rope to the top. A 2 1/2 hour wait at the Hillary step, I am no climber but I have read enough to know that a wait like that at 8,000 meters is almost suicide. I was reading somewhere how one climber described walking at that altitude, for every one step you have rest and take ten breaths, then the next step and ten breaths and so on.

http://www.outsideonline.com/feature...n-Everest.html
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:26 PM   #2
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It doesn't matter how well prepared you are, or many technical skills you have. A lot can go wrong at those altitudes and very few world famous mountaineers live to retirement.

There are approximately 200 corpsicles on Everest. I guess there will be a few more now.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:44 PM   #3
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Laurie Skreslet is a guy i knew many years ago that was able to conquer Everest....fascinating to listen to what he went through to just attempt the climb and then what he went through once he was on the mountain.

IIRC he broke his arm at one point during the ascent but soldiered on and was the first Canadian to reach the summit.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:56 PM   #4
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Is the issue Everest in itself, mountaineering, or the selfish act of taking un-necessary risks for "thrills" selfish?
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:08 PM   #5
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I had a teacher in high school who climbed Everest, he used mountain climbing and Everest analogies for everything.

I really don't see the allure of risking your life for what amounts to bragging rights. When people die on that mountain I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. The only people I feel sorry for are the Sherpas who end up carrying these rich kids and their gear up that mountain. Another part that bothers me is the amount of garbage that's abandoned on that mountain with people discarding oxygen bottles and everything else on their way up. That mountain is sacred to the local people and it's turned into an extreme sports landfill.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:25 PM   #6
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This picture is crazy. It's like the lineup for space mountain at DisneyLand/World during spring break.



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Another part that bothers me is the amount of garbage that's abandoned on that mountain with people discarding oxygen bottles and everything else on their way up.
Some people that were interviewed on the news tonight said they were stepping over frozen dead bodies on the way up as well. Crazy.

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Old 05-23-2012, 10:36 PM   #7
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With that many people doing this, why is this a big deal anymore.

Not sure if there is a more selfish act than being an everest climber. Huge waste of money, resources, risk your own and others lives, risk your family losing you.

I hope the government doesn't spend any money helping these folks.
The lure of Chomolungma is still too great in so many people. I know it was a different time and world that George Mallory lived in, but I love the quote from his writings about Everest:

“How to get the best of it all? One must conquer, achieve, get to the top; one must know the end to be convinced that one can win the end - to know there's no dream that mustn't be dared. . . Is this the summit, crowning the day? How cool and quiet! We're not exultant; but delighted, joyful; soberly astonished. . . Have we vanquished an enemy? None but ourselves. Have we gained success? That word means nothing here. Have we won a kingdom? No. . . and yes. We have achieved an ultimate satisfaction. . . fulfilled a destiny. . . To struggle and to understand - never this last without the other; such is the law. . .”
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:43 PM   #8
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http://www.adventurestats.com/tables...stAgeFat.shtml

According to this link, out of 10094 attempts, there have been 207 fatalities. 2.05%. For comparison, 2.09% of people worldwide die from road traffic accidents. Yet somehow you don't hear people talking about the selfishness of the passengers every time someone dies in a car accident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._death_by_rate

Summitting Everest is a major personal accomplishment, no matter how many people have done it before you. Is it really so hard to accept that people are willing to take on that small amount of risk to accomplish something they can be truly proud of for the rest of their lives?
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:17 PM   #9
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other than the fact that these tours pump a bit of money into the local economy this stupidity has no reedeming feature, must of these poor idiots arn't even mountaineers per say, just rich fools looking for an experiance.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:54 AM   #10
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Nepal makes very good money thanks to Everest, unless their economic fortunes change in that country it will remain full speed ahead.

I highly recommend anyone slightly interested in these companies that you pay to get you up there read "Into Thin Air" by John Krakauer, he was in one of the groups (writing for Outside magazine) during the tragedy in '96. It's the kind of read you will motor through in a few hours, a real page turner that puts you into the mind of someone who's body is literally dying slowly once in the death zone up there.

Personally I would love just to go to base camp and get a look at that mountain towering above. I had a friend that did it a few years ago, and his pictures from that area of Nepal are beyond breathtaking.

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Old 05-24-2012, 07:15 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfraggle View Post
http://www.adventurestats.com/tables...stAgeFat.shtml

According to this link, out of 10094 attempts, there have been 207 fatalities. 2.05%. For comparison, 2.09% of people worldwide die from road traffic accidents. Yet somehow you don't hear people talking about the selfishness of the passengers every time someone dies in a car accident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._death_by_rate

Summitting Everest is a major personal accomplishment, no matter how many people have done it before you. Is it really so hard to accept that people are willing to take on that small amount of risk to accomplish something they can be truly proud of for the rest of their lives?

I have really no comment on the selfishness (or not) or people who climb Everest, but I think your stats are way off.

2% of all attempts on Everest end in death, 2% of all world wide deaths are due to cars, but that is not the same as 2% of all driving attempts end in death (for every 100 times someone gets into a car, 2 people don't die, instead for every 100 people who die, 2 die due to cars, there is a huge difference).
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:24 AM   #12
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Nepal makes very good money thanks to Everest, unless their economic fortunes change in that country it will remain full speed ahead.

I highly recommend anyone slightly interested in these companies that you pay to get you up there read "Into Thin Air" by John Krakauer, he was in one of the groups (writing for Outside magazine) during the tragedy in '96. It's the kind of read you will motor through in a few hours, a real page turner that puts you into the mind of someone who's body is literally dying slowly once in the death zone up there.

Personally I would love just to go to base camp and get a look at that mountain towering above. I had a friend that did it a few years ago, and his pictures from that area of Nepal are beyond breathtaking.
A better book about the same expedition was called "The Cliimb" about the Russian Anatoly ? who dragged a bunch of peoples arses off the mountain. Krakauer makes himself look good where in reality not so much.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfraggle View Post
http://www.adventurestats.com/tables...stAgeFat.shtml

According to this link, out of 10094 attempts, there have been 207 fatalities. 2.05%. For comparison, 2.09% of people worldwide die from road traffic accidents. Yet somehow you don't hear people talking about the selfishness of the passengers every time someone dies in a car accident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._death_by_rate

Summitting Everest is a major personal accomplishment, no matter how many people have done it before you. Is it really so hard to accept that people are willing to take on that small amount of risk to accomplish something they can be truly proud of for the rest of their lives?
If the death rate of driving was 2.09% per trip then I would agree that both are selfish acts.
Something that rarely comes up is that a lot of the people who die on the mountain were left behind by the rest of their team. Often times this is done on the way up, meaning that the rest of the team has decided that reaching the summit is more important than the life of their teammate.
On a side note, take a look at how many motivational speakers are out there who have climbed Everest.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:29 AM   #14
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A better book about the same expedition was called "The Cliimb" about the Russian Anatoly ? who dragged a bunch of peoples arses off the mountain. Krakauer makes himself look good where in reality not so much.
I would say read both of them. Anatoli Boukreev (he died on Annapurna the next year) was apparently a bit of a blow hard as well and the truth is likely somewhere in the middle between both accounts. Lincoln Hall (he also recently died) also wrote a book about the expedition, but I haven't read it.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:41 AM   #15
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A better book about the same expedition was called "The Cliimb" about the Russian Anatoly ? who dragged a bunch of peoples arses off the mountain. Krakauer makes himself look good where in reality not so much.
The Russian guide who climbed without Oxygen while guiding people up the mountain. Not that responsible in my books. I didn't think Krakauer makes himself sound heroic at all. I think he talks about his failures in regards to getting Weathers down the mountain earlier. But I would say reading both gives you good perspectives on what happened.

Everest is an interesting place. People making life and death decisions while essentially drunk with all of the incentives placed on climbing rather than not dying. Its easy to survive Mount Everest. You have a turn around time and you stick to it. People die when the two O'clock turn around hits and they are only 2 hours from the summit and keep going.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:01 AM   #16
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^^^ That may have been true in the past (sticking to your turn around time) but now it sounds like these traffic jams on the mountain could screw you even if you keep to a schedule. It is starting to sound like it could be a real roll of dice on whether or not you make it down alive, and a lot of it could be due to a jam of people blocking your way down from an area like the Hillary step.

Even Krakauer mentioned having to wait something like 20 minutes at that section on his way down, due to a bunch of climbers still heading up. Imagine it now with even more people trying for the summit during these weather windows.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:05 AM   #17
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If the death rate of driving was 2.09% per trip then I would agree that both are selfish acts.
Something that rarely comes up is that a lot of the people who die on the mountain were left behind by the rest of their team. Often times this is done on the way up, meaning that the rest of the team has decided that reaching the summit is more important than the life of their teammate.
On a side note, take a look at how many motivational speakers are out there who have climbed Everest.
That's painting with a pretty wide brush. With the exception of the odd person like Anatoly that are superhuman in those conditions, most of us would end up dying if we tried to intervene and help another climber. Up in the death zone it is usually regarded as suicide to attempt it. Throw in factors like your brain functioning in a hypoxic state and you may not even realize the full extent of what is going on with your fellow climbers.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:15 AM   #18
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That's painting with a pretty wide brush. With the exception of the odd person like Anatoly that are superhuman in those conditions, most of us would end up dying if we tried to intervene and help another climber. Up in the death zone it is usually regarded as suicide to attempt it. Throw in factors like your brain functioning in a hypoxic state and you may not even realize the full extent of what is going on with your fellow climbers.
I can accept your argument on the way down. You could be close to death yourself and decide to save yourself rather than add another death to the list. But if you are still going up I would consider the summit a failure. Maybe the problem is that for a year all they think about is reaching the top so when they get into altitude and aren't thinking straight reaching the summit becomes more important than the lives of your teammates. Or because they are all paying for guides to get them up they feel that safety should be the guides responsibility. Either way, something is seriously wrong with a situation that values life so poorly.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:17 AM   #19
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it would be interesting to see how many people per year would give this a go if the weather window was much bigger.

anayways, i don't really see these deaths as a tragedy as these folks died doing what they love and the reality is that it is a cold and difficult place for people to be in.

the thought of all that climbing crap littering the mountain is distressing.

i should also note that how frustratign it must be for thsoe that dream of simmiting, and they are forced to turn back a few hundred meters from the summit.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:25 AM   #20
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I can accept your argument on the way down. You could be close to death yourself and decide to save yourself rather than add another death to the list. But if you are still going up I would consider the summit a failure. Maybe the problem is that for a year all they think about is reaching the top so when they get into altitude and aren't thinking straight reaching the summit becomes more important than the lives of your teammates. Or because they are all paying for guides to get them up they feel that safety should be the guides responsibility. Either way, something is seriously wrong with a situation that values life so poorly.
The summit of a mountain is only the halfway point of the climb.

As per the study below, most deaths above 8000 metres occur after a climber has reached the summit or a higher point and is descending to safety.

They expend everything getting to that higher point but basically fail to properly evaluate their condition or fail to fully appreciate that descending can also require incredible effort and a great deal of time.

They've got nothing left and the mountain takes them.

A look at Everest mortality between 1920-2006.

The overall mortality rate for Everest mountaineers during the entire 86-year period was 1.3 percent; the rate among climbers was 1.6 percent and the rate among sherpas was 1.1 percent. During the past 25 years, a period during which a greater percentage of moutaineers climbed above 8,000 meters, the death rate for non-Himalayan climbers descending via the longer Tibetan northeast ridge was 3.4 percent, while on the shorter Nepal route it was 2.5 percent.

Factors most associated with the risk of death were excessive fatigue, a tendency to fall behind other climbers and arriving at the summit later in the day. Many of those who died developed symptoms such as confusion, a loss of physical coordination and unconsciousness, which suggest high-altitude cerebral edema, a swelling of the brain that results from leakage of cerebral blood vessels. Symptoms of high-altitude pulmonary edema, which is involved in most high-altitude-related deaths, were suprisingly rare.

"High-altitude cerebral edema symptoms were common among those that died, but signs of pulmonary edema, or excessive fluid in the lungs, were unusual" Firth says. "We also were surprised at how few people died due to avalanches and ice falls in recent years – those usually happen at lower altitudes, and overwhelmingly people died during summit bids above 8,000 feet – and that during descents, the mortality rate for climbers was six time that of sherpas."

http://www.massgeneral.org/about/pre...e.aspx?id=1088

I experienced that to a lesser degree on 19,340 foot Kilimanjaro. Getting to the summit was about eight times tougher than running a marathon. By the time I tapped the summit sign - seven hours to travel about 6.5 km and 4000 feet of gain - I was done like dinner with a persistent, developing, high altitude cough. But turning around and walking downhill to the relative safety of 15,500 feet turned into a rather unexpected, second epic struggle in the same day. Pretty hard to resist just sitting down and try to gather up energy. But that's a bad idea.

If I ever did something like that again, its the one thing I'd remember from that earlier experience . . . . . getting to the top is only halfway in your overall day.

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