2015-16 Flames Prospects Stats

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Drury18

If Wotherspoon was the most NHL ready, why is Nakladal currently on the team and sticking?

I didn't say Wotherspoon was more NHL ready did I?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Drury18

Here's the basis of why I think Troy Ward developed more players. Him and Huska now have the same amount of time in. The players under Ward who turned into NHL regulars (in any form) greatly outnumber the players under Huska who have.

Players developed by Troy G. Ward with more than 40 NHL games (2011-2014)

Lance Bouma - 3rd Line Player with Calgary
Paul Byron - 4th Line Player with Montreal
Roman Horak - Top Line in KHL
T.J. Brodie - Top Pairing Defenceman in Calgary
Joni Ortio - 2nd/3rd Goaltender in Calgary
Sven Baertschi - 2nd Line Player with Vancouver
Michael Ferland - 1st Line Player in Calgary
Markus Granlund - 4th Line Player in Vancouver
Josh Jooris - 3rd Line Player in Calgary

Players developed by Ryan Huska with more than 40 NHL games (2014-2016)

None

Is this supposed to be a joke? Or just a joke of an attempt to make an analysis.

I think GranteedEV's response shows how deeply flawed your attempt at an analysis was.

[Drury18]

FDW, it's obvious your motive is to antagonise an argument because you felt slighted by a comment I made. It's an opinion and one made with quite a bit of background.

I don't want my prospects stats thread littered with this stuff so I will no longer be responding to your comments. You can interpret this how you wish.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I don't feel slighted, Ryan Huska might. Outside of a few vocal posters including you I've seen zero evidence that Huska is doing a poor job. In an attempt to back up your point you posted an obviously biased and flawed analysis. So I guess the jury is still out until we see some real evidence. IMO the way our call ups have looked and played this season speaks well of Huska rather than the reverse

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Drury18

FDW, it's obvious your motive is to antagonise an argument because you felt slighted by a comment I made. It's an opinion and one made with quite a bit of background.

I don't want my prospects stats thread littered with this stuff so I will no longer be responding to your comments. You can interpret this how you wish.

Your analysis was greatly flawed, coming from someone who has no stake in this discussion (I don't even really care for Huska).

1. Of course players coached in the AHL between 2011-2014 will have more NHL games played than younger players who haven't been pro as long. I cannot believe you think this is a good measurement.

2. Byron was an NHLer prior to getting traded to Calgary.

3. How is Horak playing in the KHL a good thing? Oh AND he was in the NHL for a year before Ward got a hold of him.

4. Ferland, Granlund and Jooris spent as much or more time playing for Huska as Ward.

5. Baertschi developed horribly in Calgary's system. Was sent to the AHL to learn a 200 foot game and was unsuccessful.

6. Brodie spent next to no time in the AHL under Ward.

Seriously I can't believe you thought that was a good analysis...

[Drury18]

Unfortunately Bandwagon, many of your items need to be fact checked as they are incorrect.

Frankly, I'm done with this conversation. The Back Burner has obviously changed since I was last active here. It's less prospect discussion and more peacocking for positioning like the main board. This is the main reason I stopped providing AHL updates. I really have no interest in investing my time on this part of the board anymore and obviously was a poor decision on my part to speak the opinion I had.

Please, continue with your conversation without me. I'm not longer interested in trying to rationalize with the uniformed few.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Drury18

Unfortunately Bandwagon, many of your items need to be fact checked as they are incorrect.

Frankly, I'm done with this conversation. The Back Burner has obviously changed since I was last active here. It's less prospect discussion and more peacocking for positioning like the main board. This is the main reason I stopped providing AHL updates. I really have no interest in investing my time on this part of the board anymore and obviously was a poor decision on my part to speak the opinion I had.

Please, continue with your conversation without me. I'm not longer interested in trying to rationalize with the uniformed few.

Very mature of you. "You're wrong, but I don't have time to explain why you're wrong".

Go ahead and take the easy way out by playing the victim card...

[Drury18]

So you are going to lower yourself to name calling in order to further push your inaccurate statements as truth? Okay then.

1. Of course players coached in the AHL between 2011-2014 will have more NHL games played than younger players who haven't been pro as long. I cannot believe you think this is a good measurement.

Please table your suggestion for how we determine an equal way assess players. If I'm using a measurement you "cannot believe", then please suggest yours.

2. Byron was an NHLer prior to getting traded to Calgary.

Are you referring to Byron’s 8 games with Buffalo? That’s considered “NHLer”? I mean I guess technically he did play but 8 games hardly accounts for a prior NHL career to coming to Calgary and not requiring any development to go on afterwards to play 181 more games

3. How is Horak playing in the KHL a good thing? Oh AND he was in the NHL for a year before Ward got a hold of him.

How is it not? Mark Giordano did a stint in the KHL before returning to North America and turning into a regular NHL player. Horak's playing top line minutes, he’s getting ice time, he’s been named captain of the team for a time. How does that not go a long way to getting him experience and leadership that transfers back to the NHL? What is your personal development plan for Horak to get him back in the NHL?

Horak actually played from October to December in the NHL during his first season (2011-12), then he was sent down to Abbotsford. He played 14 games for the Heat before being recalled again in February and playing until late March with the Flames. So no, he did not have a “full season”. He had 25 games with the Flames before his assignment to the Heat.

4. Ferland, Granlund and Jooris spent as much or more time playing for Huska as Ward.

You are 1 for 3 there with accuracy.

Ferland played 32 games under Ward and 32 with Huska. This is the only one you are actually right about.

Granlund played 57 games under Ward and 33 under Huska. Granlund played for Ward more.

Jooris played 73 games under Ward and 0 under Huska. You aren’t even close there.

5. Baertschi developed horribly in Calgary's system. Was sent to the AHL to learn a 200 foot game and was unsuccessful.

I don’t even know your argument here. Are we debating the fact he’s a 2nd line player in Vancouver and his 129 games in the NHL has nothing to do with his time with Ward? Is that what we are going for here?

6. Brodie spent next to no time in the AHL under Ward.

Brodie played 47 games for Ward in the AHL. He played 68 for Playfair. 47 games certainly isn’t “next to no time”.

Seriously I can't believe you thought that was a good analysis...

I seriously can't believe you jumped into a conversation with such accusations and certainty without checking any of your facts first.

[kirant]

Please table your suggestion for how we determine an equal way assess players. If I'm using a measurement you "cannot believe", then please suggest yours.

Not directed at me, but I think this is my approach: compare the developed players based on how many years the coach has had since they started with the Flames. That is, Huska has had about 2 years as head coach. So compare the results of Huska today against Ward after having two years as head coach (end of the 2012-2013 season).

It might not be a huge impact in your analysis (I don't know before typing this up), but you're controlling the variables as best we can. In this case, this comparison would control how many years the prospects have had to break into the NHL...your comparison gives them 5 for Ward, 2 for Huska. This version gives 2 for Ward, 2 for Huska.

Side note: I actually like Ward. Would probably have been better as an NHL coach than an AHL coach as he does have his own system but it's tough to go from nowhere to the NHL in one jump. Not sure what to make of Huska yet (not enough seasons), but his players do seem ready to play NHL hockey when they come up. Stats are pretty ugly but stats aren't my biggest indicator.

Here are the players you listed as they were in 2012-2013:

Lance Bouma - Just broke into the NHL on the 4th line. Would start a full season right after.
Paul Byron - AHL
Roman Horak - NHL tweener.
T.J. Brodie - NHL on the 3rd pairing if memory serves.
Joni Ortio - All but forgotten. Played in Helsinki and a lot of us wrote him off due to his poor showing in the AHL before.
Sven Baertschi - Showed signs of brilliance but also seemed a little over his head at times.
Michael Ferland - Went from the AHL to ECHL to WHL. Credit to him for sticking it out and finding a home on the Blades.
Markus Granlund - Also in Helsinki.
Josh Jooris - Still in the NCAA.


If we talk about players who were showing up as NHL regulars in this time, we'd get:

Troy G Ward's NHL Regulars after 2 seasons
Lance Bouma - Calgary Flames 4th line.
T.J. Brodie - Calgary Flames 3rd pairing
Sven Baertschi - Promising tweener if you want to add him.

Ryan Huska's NHL Regulars after 2 seasons
(Nothing)

I think this is a better comparable. 3 players are better than nothing (and the power of looking into the future tells us Brodie is a home run) but this is all the information we wold have after 2 seasons of Ward as coach.

If we extend this to another season, giving Ward 3 years to Huska's 2, we get this set of NHL regulars:
Lance Bouma - 4th line on the Flames
Paul Byron - NHL tweener.
T.J. Brodie - I forget where we labelled him at the time. A lot of us did like him though.
Sven Baertschi - If we're being generous. Burke buried him during this season.

[GranteedEV]

First of all, I'm going to open this post with: this conversation is pretty topical. The prospects haven't had the strongest stats in the AHL under Huska but we're discussing whether that's a useful barometer of their development. So when I post this, it's because I don't think this is a digression or tangent - it's context-building.

Originally Posted by Drury18

Ferland played equal amounts of time under Ward and Huska. However, Huska only got Ferland AFTER he played in the NHL and AFTER the concussion set him back (as well as addiction issues). So no, I don't believe Huska gets credit as Ferland was down on a conditioning stint.

Ferland didn't make the Flames out of training camp. He had 9 points in 9 games under Ryan Huska when he was called up for the first time in his NHL career. Regardless of how much Ward contributed to Ferland's development, we can't disregard that Ferland had the best start to a season in his pro career under Huska.

Baertschi has 73 games under Ward and 32 under Huska. Baertschi also had lower NHL time and points after time with Huska. Huska had the opportunity to help turn his game around and didn't, hence the trade.

To the first part, different management had a different set of rules for Baertschi. As far as when question marks started popping up about his all-around game, Baertschi was originally sent down to the minors right after Jay Feaster was fired. At that point in time Baertschi had ALREADY played 32 games under Troy G Ward along with 46 for Bob Hartley. The second time he was sent down was out of training camp.

To the bolded, this is entirely an opinion. Despite the constant up-and-down, most would have agreed that his all-around game by February 2015 was the best it ever was during his time here. And his trade wasn't because he hadn't progressed, it was because he was personally frustrated with his situation.

Granlund's development was 100% Troy Ward. Huska got Granlund because he was an easy waiver guy to send down. Granlund was pretty much an NHL guy at that point.

That's besides the point. If Huska is being denied credit for Granlund, why not deny Ward credit for Granlund and say his development was due to his coaches over in Finland? It's a slippery slope.

Ward had the patience with Jooris to help him overcome the college hump. Absolutely Ward is the reason Jooris could make the jump.

Josh Jooris "made the jump" because he played hard and got some bounces his way while playing on Bennett and Gaudreau's right wing during camp. Overcoming the college hump? Who had the better rookie pro season, Agostino or Jooris?

"I saw Josh play a lot for the Abbotsford Heat last year ... he really didn’t stand out to me in a positive or a negative way. He was a good player but not one I’d expect to be playing in the NHL, let alone playing almost 20 per game with the Flames." - Derek Willis

[Drury18]

Did Jooris post the points under Ward? Absolutely not. But the thing with Ward and college guys is that he sat down, had the patience with them and understood what the issues translating a college game to AHL game. There are numerous pre game interviews posted in those old Abby threads where Ward repeated over and over that he wasn't worried about the college guys, he was working with them and this was a normal college "hump" and confidence and scoring will come. Ward was definitely responsible in keeping up Jooris' confidence so he could make the jump.

Derek Willis was basing his comments on play only I believe. I'm not sure how privy he was to what Ward did off ice with these guys. Which fair enough. But Ward put a lot of time in with Jooris, Hanowski and Knight to help them that first year between pro and college.

Agostino is an anomaly if you will. One of those guys who immediately transitioned without issues. Same with Gaudreau. This isn't common place and speaks to the level of talent both have.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Drury18

I'm not sure how privy [Willis] was to what Ward did off ice with these guys. Which fair enough. But Ward put a lot of time in with Jooris, Hanowski and Knight to help them that first year between pro and college.

And how privy are we actually to what Huska has or hasn't done off-ice with all the first year pros he's gotten - Agostino, Hathaway, Arnold, Van Brabant, and Morrison (and Kulak, Culkin, Kylington, Smith, Caroll, Klimchuk, Sieloff, Poirier, Lomberg for guys not out of college, and Elson/Ramage too for guys who finally broke out as AHLers)?


I just think it's a poor argument to make when we've got two guys who were in college two seasons ago, the AHL last season, and are in the NHL right now. And Hathaway has spoken pretty glowingly about Huska for that matter. Just because Ward did a praise-worthy job in some aspects, doesn't create an argument against Huska. The two are unrelated. And maybe Huska just gives a vague/bad interview.

[Caged Great]

Lets see who graduates two years from now. That's the accurate comparison. Some of the current graduates like Granlund and Baertschi have only stuck in the NHL this season, two years after playing under Ward. Guys like Poirier and Klimchuk will probably be on the Flames in 2017-2018 or sooner. Others like Agostino/Hamilton/Hathaway/Wotherspoon/Kulak have all played well in their brief appearances this year and each could potentially make the NHL next year (not all at the same time)

There isn't enough information yet to make a call on who has been better at developing players, although I personally think Huska is the better one in that regard.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

The difference here is that Ward had his systems and was a very technical coach, using code and abbreviations to help players analyze situations at a faster rate. Ward wanted to use his systems and only his systems. When he was told to streamline the systems to match Hartley's, I don't think it went over very well.

Thus, we have Huska - a very young coach with (obvious) dreams of being an NHL coach one day, but isn't given the autonomy to use his own systems, and frankly, he's too inexperienced to enact the systems he's told to teach.

So it's a catch-22. Most veteran coaches won't be a puppet for someone else's systems and rookie coaches probably don't demand the type of authority and are too inexperienced to teach them.

That's just my observation anyways. I have no solution.

I would suggest the only possible solutions are either an older coach who employs a systems similar to Hartley's or allow a coach (younger or older) to use their own systems.

[Da_Chief]

Drury's stance:
Anything that is remotely positive, was done by Ward. Anything negative is on Huska.

Very poor in my opinion.

The Flames have given Huska basically bare minimum Veteran AHLers. They want their top prospects playing and developing, which is exactly what you're seeing when they come up.

On Ward's teams (it changed in his last year) the first 2-3 years had older guys like Krys Kolanos, Ben Walter, Clay Wilson, Jon Rheault, Ben Street etc were team leaders in points.

As far as developed players go. The Flames re-build started with Ward in the AHL, there were more opportunities then to win a spot when veterans were being shipped out.

Up until recently; if it wasn't for Wideman suspension, Russell trade, Smid injury we would not have seen Wotherspoon and Nakladal. If that was the case, some posters no doubt would've blamed Huska for not developing them as NHLers. There has to be an opportunity and a place for these players to go to.

Ward is a decent coach but there must be reason why he was fired immediately from Vancouver. Since his assistant gig in the NHL 2 decades ago, he has bounces around in the AHL, USHL, WHL, NCAA spending most of his time as an assistant. So let's not pretend the Flames let of a great coach.

Huska, coaching for 14 years now has gone from assistant in the WHL to head coach in WHL to head coach in AHL. He's a good coach and teams have seen that. His next step would be assistant in the NHL.

[gunnner]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Lets see who graduates two years from now. That's the accurate comparison. Some of the current graduates like Granlund and Baertschi have only stuck in the NHL this season, two years after playing under Ward. Guys like Poirier and Klimchuk will probably be on the Flames in 2017-2018 or sooner. Others like Agostino/Hamilton/Hathaway/Wotherspoon/Kulak have all played well in their brief appearances this year and each could potentially make the NHL next year (not all at the same time)

There isn't enough information yet to make a call on who has been better at developing players, although I personally think Huska is the better one in that regard.

Klimchuk will probably be on the flames in 2017-18?

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by gunnner

Klimchuk will probably be on the flames in 2017-18?

Yes. He's improved his 200 ft game. Still has a lot to learn overall, but he will likely be on Stockton's 1st line instead of in a defensive role next year. He'll likely be ready for a 3rd/4th line role in Calgary after that. The Heat have pretty much played him on the 3rd/4th line all season except a couple game stretch before Grant got hurt when he was on the first line with him and Poirier (and all three came close to scoring multiple times per game)

It's a learning process with a lot of guys. No need to rush players.

[Vulcan]

The way I understand it a good NHL coach takes the players he's given and uses a system that plays into the strengths of the players. This is what Hartley has done.

It's also common practise for the AHL coach to implement the system that the NHL team uses so that when a player is called up, he can seamlessly fit into the NHL team. This isn't always the best fit for the AHL team but the AHL coach has to get instep. If he won't there is trouble and he's probably going to be replaced. That's what happened to Ward IMO, he wasn't willing or able to adjust. His short WHL experience was a symptom of this. Kind of reminds me of Brent Sutter although Brent seems to be able to relate to junior players.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

There's no doubt in my mind there was a disconnect between Treliving, Hartley and Ward. Whether Ward outwardly refused to streamline the systems, I don't know. Regardless, I think that's the primary reason he was canned.

His short tenure with the Giants was a combination of a couple primary factors IMO. I've mentioned before how technical Ward was. It wouldn't surprise me if his systems and jargon was simply too advanced for 16-20 year old kids. That's one reason.

I think the other reason was he commanded a bit too much out of athletes of that young age. It wouldn't surprise me if he was trying to run the Giants like a professional club, which has its upsides and downsides. But if pushed too far, it'll leave a sour taste in managements' mouth. I think this might've happened. For example, Ward sees the dressing room as a "sacred place" for players, so media should be limited from going in there. So with the Heat he set up a media room, which was where all the interviews took place. When he requested to set up his designated media room in Vancouver and was denied, it didn't go over so well either way.

That's just a couple of examples as to why it didn't work. I do believe the best place for Ward is coaching 20+ year olds, meaning college or AHL level. That's Ward's niche and I think he's good at it.

When it comes to Huska, I just think the learning curve was/is too great for him to become a head coach in the AHL. I think the best thing would've been to bring him in as an assistant under an established coach who was willing to enact Hartley's systems all while taking Huska under his wing.

To be clear, I'm not saying Ward was The Master Monk of AHL Coaches. He had his flaws as a coach right down to some of his philosophies, but I think he did a superior job to what Huska has accomplished now in two seasons. Ward had some bad teams and some bad seasons, but I never saw as many breakdowns in systems with Ward's teams as I've seen with Huska's teams. Rookies didn't look nearly as lost under Ward as they do under Huska.

[Street Pharmacist]

Gregg Drinnan is a 35 year WHL beat writer and he told me the Giants decision to hire him wasn't unanimous and he tried to run a minor team like a pro team with disastrous results