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Old 09-09-2007, 08:01 PM   #41
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For every dollar we save on tube socks is another child that will go hungry tonight.
For you a extra dollar for your tube socks not might be a big deal, but for others a extra dollar on tube socks and other miscellaneous items to boost the quality of life for someone in another country might mean their child is the one going hungry tonight.

Yes 3rd world does support the lifestyle of those of us living in the 1st world and as cruel as it is, how much would you be willing to sacrafice so that everyone could be equal the world round. Do you honestly think that you could maintain the quality of life that you enjoy if things were equal the world over???

and Nike is just the tip of the iceberg here, in general its not the nikes of the world that need to do business in 3rd world countries, nor would it make much of a difference if they didn't, its the tube sock makers, the cheap running shoes and various other clothing manufacturers. Yes, Nike would probably still make money if they manufactured in NA, however, the majority of companies are not in their situation.

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Old 09-09-2007, 08:02 PM   #42
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just another perspective for you, you and anyone who behaves like you are putting 3rd world workers out of work. You may not like the hours or wages they make but through your ethical actions they could go out of work and be in a situation worse than the one everyone is looking down their nose at.
Interesting perspective.

Do you buy cigarettes? If not, you and people who behave like you are putting a tobacco farmer out of work. Nicely done. Do you feel ethical now?

Here's the thing -- if I don't like how a company does business, I'm not going to buy something from them. If I think Company X is exploiting desperate people, using child labor and polluting some foreign environment just because they can get away with it, I'm not going to buy their product.

If you are fine with that, go nuts. Don't give me this "we are helping them" excuse though.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:04 PM   #43
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Wow, unlike the extreme left to think that anyone who doesn't think like them will never learn anything.


Just out of curiosity, given your undeniably impressive set of morals, what exactly have you done to improve this situation? Buying local doesn't do squat. I probably don't have to repeat because you are such a good learner, but buying local products won't help 3rd world nations in any way whatsoever. There's a big gap between how the world and economics work, and how you believe them to work.
I don't think of myself as extreme anything unless being right is extreme. I've voted right and left depending on the circumstance.

Who said anything about helping the 3rd world nations? I'm trying to protect local jobs and our own economy by buying Canadian when it's reasonable and getting a better quality product. The 3rd world nations would probably do very well if we didn't conspire against them. In Africa [not that this is their only problem but] you can buy a chicken raised in France cheaper than a locally grown one because of the trade agreements and subsidies. I've posted links about this before but nobody bothered to read them.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:06 PM   #44
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For you a extra dollar for your tube socks not might be a big deal, but for others a extra dollar on tube socks and other miscellaneous items to boost the quality of life for someone in another country might mean their child is the one going hungry tonight.

Yes 3rd world does support the lifestyle of those of us living in the 1st world and as cruel as it is, how much would you be willing to sacrafice so that everyone could be equal the world round. Do you honestly think that you could maintain the quality of life that you enjoy if things were equal the world over???
I'd like to see Vulcan answer this with a straight face ... while typing on his/her laptop/computer.

To a certain extent economics are a zero sum game. Vulcan and Devils Advocate buy locally and that hurts the 3rd world worker, but supports local industry. I buy Nike's from a sweat shop and vice versa impacts.

At the end of the day I just can't believe that some people don't get that the pay isn't great compared to us, but it is still the very best option of everyone who works in a Nike production shop. And if everyone demanded local products because of their superior ethical views then they all go out of work and their lives are worse ... simple as that. So their superior ethics screw the very people they feel sorry for.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:13 PM   #45
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I don't think of myself as extreme anything unless being right is extreme. I've voted right and left depending on the circumstance.

Who said anything about helping the 3rd world nations? I'm trying to protect local jobs and our own economy by buying Canadian when it's reasonable and getting a better quality product. The 3rd world nations would probably do very well if we didn't conspire against them. In Africa [not that this is their only problem but] you can buy a chicken raised in France cheaper than a locally grown one because of the trade agreements and subsidies. I've posted links about this before but nobody bothered to read them.
From an economics perspective you strike me as very extreme left. And the extreme's left or right are the one's who know they are right when everyone else is inferior to them and simply can't learn what you know.

Your first post was about how sweatshops EXPLOIT 3rd world workers. What I've been saying is that your version of expoloitation is simply those workers best option. Not very nice, but very very accurate. And that's not the producer's fault.

I like how your arguement has shifted though from one of expoloitation to one of "I'm trying to protect local jobs".

BTW in my experience there is a strong correlation between people who know it all and are frustrated by those who can't learn from them, and those that can effectively 'shift' their viewpoint when convenient. It becomes a game of whack a mole where you dip and dodge your way around so you never feel like you were wrong about anything.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:17 PM   #46
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I'd like to see Vulcan answer this with a straight face ... while typing on his/her laptop/computer.
Why not, it's never been tried before. I just don't get off on stepping on someone elses back to get ahead when the game is rigged. You can call that extreme or whatever.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:27 PM   #47
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How is this all that different than the fact that we use taxis while taxi companies are ripping their workers?
I make good money, but my dad makes 10x as much. He can afford things that I'll be lucky to ever afford. So does the fact taht his quality of life is wayyyy better than mine mean that he's taking advantage of me by giving me business?
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:31 PM   #48
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How is this all that different than the fact that we use taxis while taxi companies are ripping their workers?
I make good money, but my dad makes 10x as much. He can afford things that I'll be lucky to ever afford. So does the fact taht his quality of life is wayyyy better than mine mean that he's taking advantage of me by giving me business?
Come on....you cant compare the two. They are way different. Like I said in my first post....unless your working conditions are like that.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:32 PM   #49
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How is this all that different than the fact that we use taxis while taxi companies are ripping their workers?
I make good money, but my dad makes 10x as much. He can afford things that I'll be lucky to ever afford. So does the fact taht his quality of life is wayyyy better than mine mean that he's taking advantage of me by giving me business?
Not that different from what I can tell. All the cab drivers have a choice, and driving a taxi is their best opportunity.

From what I know cab drivers work long hours, I can't imiaging they make a killing, in fact I think I recall hearing that they generally work about 6 or 7 hours to pay off their fixed costs like gas and licences, then after than they make profit. Not my idea of fun, but refusing to use cab's won't help them out any.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:43 PM   #50
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Not that different from what I can tell. All the cab drivers have a choice, and driving a taxi is their best opportunity.

From what I know cab drivers work long hours, I can't imiaging they make a killing, in fact I think I recall hearing that they generally work about 6 or 7 hours to pay off their fixed costs like gas and licences, then after than they make profit. Not my idea of fun, but refusing to use cab's won't help them out any.
Taxi drivers make any where from 20,000 to 45,000 and that is claimed income. I am sure they make a bit more than that but they don't disclose it to CRA. Not bad for only having to have a DL as education.

ADD: Also...people keep saying they have a choice. They really don't. It is work those long hours in those horrible conditions or starve to death. It is not like here where if the taxi driver doesn't like his job, he can go work something else or go to school. They are not the same at all.

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Old 09-09-2007, 08:45 PM   #51
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Of course nobody supports things like this, things like union leaders terrorizing factory workers and companies outsourcing labour are two different issues.
Nononononono.... union leaders were not terrorizing factory workers. The Philippean government was executing union leaders. Anyone who tried to start a union was labelled a terrorist and killed.

And that was in response to those that said that the way for developing countries to get a fair wage was to go through what we in the developed world went through. But I don't remember when the Canadian government labelled union leaders terrorists and murdered them.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:47 PM   #52
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Taxi drivers make any where from 20,000 to 45,000 and that is claimed income. I am sure they make a bit more than that but they don't disclose it to CRA. Not bad for only having to have a DL as education.
ok fair enough, that doesn't strike me as great money, and if I heard right they drive like 12 hours day.

Yes their conditions are better than those in sweatshops, no doubt if that is what you are pointing out. But the same situation exists (to me anyway) that they aren't the best jobs around, but they are the best to an audience with limited options.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:49 PM   #53
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Nononononono.... union leaders were not terrorizing factory workers. The Philippean government was executing union leaders. Anyone who tried to start a union was labelled a terrorist and killed.

And that was in response to those that said that the way for developing countries to get a fair wage was to go through what we in the developed world went through. But I don't remember when the Canadian government labelled union leaders terrorists and murdered them.
OK well clearly nobody would be pro killing potential union leaders. I guess I still don't get your point, who are you presuming is killing these people? The owners of the sweatshops?
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:11 PM   #54
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Not very nice, but very very accurate. And that's not the producer's fault.
So, the situation is not the producers fault.

But if the consumer boycotts this producer they are at fault for not giving their money to third world factory workers.

It would seem that you have a very defeatist attitude. Or at least working very hard on the rationalization so that you don't feel guilty.

I am of the opinion that we no longer vote for our leaders in the polling booth because the politicians are too busy playing little games and getting their palms greased by special interests. If you want to have any kind of impact it would have to consumer impact. Consumers would have to stop buying tuna fish because of dolphins being caught in the net for Clover Leaf to make changes to the way the tuna are being caught.

I don't buy Canadian because it's local or want to preserve Canadian jobs - it's because I wish to buy products made by workers in a country that has decent labour laws and a minimum wage. I have purchased items from places like "nosweatapparel.com" where items made by unionized workers from the developing world are sold, but with retail tags only saying "made in China" or "made in Thailand" how is one to know whether the workers are making a living wage. I really wish there was a better labelling system.... but without one, I'm going to stick with purchasing Canadian goods and avoiding products made in third world countries.
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:16 PM   #55
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... as cruel as it is, how much would you be willing to sacrafice so that everyone could be equal the world round.
"It's really too bad that these parents need to send their kids out to prostitute themselves at the age of 13, but if these conditions didn't exist, I wouldn't be able to get that second car...."

Personally, I don't think things should be equal. I think those that work the hardest or do the most complex work should get paid the most. In which case those in the developing world that do backbreaking manual labour to put food on the table in the third world should be making one hell of a lot more than those that sit on their ass and surf the web all day.
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:21 PM   #56
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OK well clearly nobody would be pro killing potential union leaders. I guess I still don't get your point, who are you presuming is killing these people? The owners of the sweatshops?
Oy. How many times do I have to repeat this? My point is that those saying that these people need to stand up for their rights and demand a living wage like we did in the Industrial Revolution are off base. They *ARE* trying to stand up - but they are standing up against a government that has machine guns and are not afraid to use them against their population. There is no action that these people can take to improve their situation. So it is up to people outside their country to stand up and say that this is unacceptable.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:43 PM   #57
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So, the situation is not the producers fault.

But if the consumer boycotts this producer they are at fault for not giving their money to third world factory workers.
I didn't say that, I just pointed out the impacts of actions. People can choose to buy domestic things or foreign things, there is no right or wrong because consumers are free to choose.

I am however pointing out the irony of consumers who think they are supporting the disadvantaged worker in what they feel are unacceptable working conditions buy avoiding those products ... however the only real impact is that the foreign worker may lose their choice to work in that job or not ... they simply have the 'not' option.

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It would seem that you have a very defeatist attitude. Or at least working very hard on the rationalization so that you don't feel guilty.

I am of the opinion that we no longer vote for our leaders in the polling booth because the politicians are too busy playing little games and getting their palms greased by special interests. If you want to have any kind of impact it would have to consumer impact. Consumers would have to stop buying tuna fish because of dolphins being caught in the net for Clover Leaf to make changes to the way the tuna are being caught.
I call it realistic, but it may be the same as what you call a defeatist attitude.

And good luck with the way you choose to vote. There is no way you could ever be able to determine if a politician takes bribes or not. You may know if someone does get greased but you will never know if someone doesn't. However Cdn politician getting greased has nothing to do with working conditions in developing countries.

I also believe that in the long run the invisible hand behind free markets (with proper legislation and controls) will properly guide behaviors and in the long run will leave the people the best off. People are motivated to be educated, accept greater challenges, and when fully advanced incents collaboration and greater good teamwork. It's not a perfect model, but in comparision all others simply suck. Canada is about as good an example as there is.

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I don't buy Canadian because it's local or want to preserve Canadian jobs - it's because I wish to buy products made by workers in a country that has decent labour laws and a minimum wage. I have purchased items from places like "nosweatapparel.com" where items made by unionized workers from the developing world are sold, but with retail tags only saying "made in China" or "made in Thailand" how is one to know whether the workers are making a living wage. I really wish there was a better labelling system.... but without one, I'm going to stick with purchasing Canadian goods and avoiding products made in third world countries.
I agree with the bolded part, I guess my perspective is I won't descriminate or turn my back on other people simply because I don't find working conditions acceptable. It still may be better than their alternatives.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:46 PM   #58
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Oy. How many times do I have to repeat this? My point is that those saying that these people need to stand up for their rights and demand a living wage like we did in the Industrial Revolution are off base. They *ARE* trying to stand up - but they are standing up against a government that has machine guns and are not afraid to use them against their population. There is no action that these people can take to improve their situation. So it is up to people outside their country to stand up and say that this is unacceptable.
OK, I don't think the action will get the response you want but I get the point.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:04 PM   #59
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I am however pointing out the irony of consumers who think they are supporting the disadvantaged worker in what they feel are unacceptable working conditions buy avoiding those products ...
Delicious irony indeed.
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I guess my perspective is I won't descriminate or turn my back on other people simply because I don't find working conditions acceptable.
Interesting perspective again. That is quite a sacrifice you are making there, refusing to discriminate or turn your back on people by buying all that cheap crap and tacitly supporting all that "disadvantage", to use your own word.

How about this though -- when the factory moves on to the cheaper labor market and the looser politicians, will you continue to not discriminate against the laborers you champion right now?
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