Oscar Pistorius kills his GF ?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by darklord700

To me, bail hearing in NA is all about fligth risk or how much to set the bail at. In this case, both defense and prosecution are emptying their chamber at each other that it sounds like a real trial.

This detective's blunder will be disasterous had this been the real trial. Now the prosecution can regroup for the real trial, does it really help the accused when they are showing off their hand this early?

I don't think it really matters, they're presenting evidence they've gathered, not really formulating arguments based upon the law. All of that evidence would be readily available to both sides for trial so the timing shouldn't be an issue.

I'd say the likely reason that they're presenting so much evidence in a bail hearing is that the restrictions on someone who has a strong case for premeditated murder against them are likely much more severe than someone who is likely going to get nothing more than a manslaughter conviction, if that. They may also have something like a Grand Jury in the US, where charges need to be presented and substantiated before an indictment.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't know much about the details of South African law, but they appear to largely follow the common law system when it comes to criminal matters so I would expect things run fairly similar to what we see in Canada from a procedural standpoint. It does seem odd that this bail hearing is going on for days, but there have been multiple recesses each day so that may explain part of it.

Except it is a banana republic. The one positive is the public don't believe his story. Talking to me friends in SA, they none of them believe what Oscar is selling. They view this as a big test of the police (which have an aweful status in SA).

The legal/courts in Africa are terrible, anyone ever watch Mugabe and the White Africian?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't think it really matters, they're presenting evidence they've gathered, not really formulating arguments based upon the law. All of that evidence would be readily available to both sides for trial so the timing shouldn't be an issue.

I'd say the likely reason that they're presenting so much evidence in a bail hearing is that the restrictions on someone who has a strong case for premeditated murder against them are likely much more severe than someone who is likely going to get nothing more than a manslaughter conviction, if that. They may also have something like a Grand Jury in the US, where charges need to be presented and substantiated before an indictment.

Apparently, there is no 1st or 2nd degree murder/manslaughter in SA. I don't know this for fact, but it's what I am told.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Apparently, there is no 1st or 2nd degree murder/manslaughter in SA. I don't know this for fact, but it's what I am told.

The labels don't matter, they differentiate on the same grounds as other common law systems. The charge sought is the equivalent to our first degree murder based upon the premidation, the defense argument seems to be painting it as a gross negligence level of manslaughter in the absolute worst case, which they appear to refer to as culpable homicide. There's probably some variations, but in general it's the same thing under a different name than we're used to.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Talking to me friends in SA, they none of them believe what Oscar is selling.

I have never been to SA but Oscar's defense just doesn't make rational sense to me. How often do people hear a sound in the middle of night, grab a gun, go to the bathroom on stumps in his case and just shoot at toilet door thinking an intruder is inside?

Before he even saw the silhouette of the intruder he had made up his mind of killing him.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by darklord700

I have never been to SA but Oscar's defense just doesn't make rational sense to me. How often do people hear a sound in the middle of night, grab a gun, go to the bathroom on stumps in his case and just shoot at toilet door thinking an intruder is inside?

Before he even saw the silhouette of the intruder he had made up his mind of killing him.

Do you forget the dancing in the streets when OJ was found not guilty? In this country different classes get differnt justice.

[TopChed]

Originally Posted by darklord700

I have never been to SA but Oscar's defense just doesn't make rational sense to me. How often do people hear a sound in the middle of night, grab a gun, go to the bathroom on stumps in his case and just shoot at toilet door thinking an intruder is inside?

Before he even saw the silhouette of the intruder he had made up his mind of killing him.

While I don't believe much of what he's saying, lots of people in SA, especially wealthy people, are very concerned about home invasions. It happens a lot, and can often be violent. We probably aren't used to the level of fear that people have in SA about crimes like this.

Crime Threats



Violent, confrontational crime is a major concern in South Africa. Such crimes include home invasion robberies, burglaries, carjackings, street muggings, smash-and-grabs, organized attacks on commercial and retail centers such as shopping malls and outlets, as well as attacks on cash-in-transit vehicles/personnel (i.e., armored car/personnel). Of particular concern for American citizens living in South Africa are home invasion robberies. These crimes are often violent in nature and can occur at any time in the day. In many cases, criminals prefer the occupant is home because the residential alarm is off and the occupant can identify where valuables are located. The recently released South African Police Service (SAPS) 2011 crime statistics indicate that the number of home invasions remains at an alarmingly high rate, with a total of 7,039 reported in Gauteng Province alone (Gauteng Province includes the cities of Johannesburg and Pretoria). Measures to combat home invasions should include several layers of residential security including perimeter walls, alarms, and grills on windows. Vehicle gates should also be equipped with anti-lift brackets, as criminals have been known to use crowbars and pneumatic jacks to lift gates off their tracks.

http://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentRep...aspx?cid=12014

[HOOT]

Senator Clay Davis should be the new lead investigator since he seems to know so much about what went on that night.

[moon]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Senator Clay Davis should be the new lead investigator since he seems to know so much about what went on that night.

I would say he might already be Pistorius' PR agent since he reads things in such a crazy pro-Oscar way that he must have some sort of vested interest in seeing this guy go free.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by TopChed

While I don't believe much of what he's saying, lots of people in SA, especially wealthy people, are very concerned about home invasions. It happens a lot, and can often be violent. We probably aren't used to the level of fear that people have in SA about crimes like this.



http://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentRep...aspx?cid=12014

OT, but doesn't South Africa also have some of the highest sexual assault rates in the world? Something like 1/3 women are raped.

[bluejays]

1/3rd? That's a plague of rapists, if true. Wow.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by fleury

1/3rd? That's a plague of rapists, if true. Wow.

You know you have a bit of a rape problem when Wikipedia devotes an entire article to it.

It is estimated that over 40% of South African women will be raped in their lifetime and that only 1 in 9 rapes are reported.[11] It is also estimated that 14% of perpetrators of rape are convicted in South Africa.[12] In 1997, violence against women was added as one of the priority crimes under the National Crime Prevention Strategy; nevertheless, the rates of reported rape, sexual abuse of children and domestic violence continue to rise.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...n_South_Africa

EDIT: Crap, they even have a baby-raping problem.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You know you have a bit of a rape problem when Wikipedia devotes an entire article to it.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...n_South_Africa

EDIT: Crap, they even have a baby-raping problem.

There is a belief that sex is an infant will cure HIV infection.

Two weeks ago for one radio stations "pinged" every 4 mins, b/c every 4 mins in SA a women reports a sexual assualt.

The current president of SA was charged with rape leading up to his election. He got off (no pun intended) b/c he said it was consentual, but when asked if he was worried about having sex with a HIV infect women he said no he had a shower after sex.

http://www.eutimes.net/2012/07/south...home-invasion/

This is not uncommon in that country, sad.

[Flabbibulin]

Pistorius granted bail

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Pistorius granted bail

Might be an indication of how much the prosecution case was damaged in the bail hearing.

The Pistorius version in a graphic:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02...eva-steenkamp/

Cowperson

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Pistorius granted bail

He might take this opportunity to off himself.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You know you have a bit of a rape problem when Wikipedia devotes an entire article to it.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...n_South_Africa

EDIT: Crap, they even have a baby-raping problem.

WTF?? why would any women with any sort of money want to live in South Africa?

Wasn't Charlize Theron raped before too?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

WTF?? why would any women with any sort of money want to live in South Africa?

Wasn't Charlize Theron raped before too?

She's invested a lot of money into a rape awareness campaign but I don't think she herself has ever been raped (not that she's admited publically anyways).

Why does she stay there? I think she is a proud South African who wants to make a difference. If everyone with her status left, there would be no one to fight this and rape rates would just get worse. Reeva was also someone who was campaining against the treatment of women in her country, which makes her death even sadder.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The Pistorius version in a graphic:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02...eva-steenkamp/

It's a decent defense but it doesn't explain:

1) The high trajectory bullet path if OP was firing from close to the ground
2) The holster found at the Reeva side of the bed
3) The one bullet casing found in the bedroom
4) The cricket bat and cracked skull of Reeva

2 or 3 could be argued that the police contaminated the crime scene and thus caused the holster and bullet casing to be misplaced.

1) and 4) look more damaging. If the police can confirm that OP was high or that there was really a Ruby player texting Reeva, that would help the prosecutor's case.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Might be an indication of how much the prosecution case was damaged in the bail hearing.

The Pistorius version in a graphic:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02...eva-steenkamp/

Cowperson

I don't think so. A bail hearing isn't about establishing guilt or judging the strength of a case, it's about assessing flight risk and the danger the accused could pose if allowed out. It's pretty hard to say he's a flight risk, he's not exactly going to just blend in and disappear to the wilderness, and you'd have to have a pretty slam dunk case to establish him as some sort of sociopathic murderer. People are reading way too much into a bail hearing.