Israel declares war on Hamas

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Azure

Canada has for years supported the UNRWA which has been a puppet for Hamas. This has all been exposed many times. Money that Canadian taxpayers have paid (i.e. you) has flowed directly into the hands of Hamas, and has been part of continuing the cycle of violence. Does that not bother you? Or does it only bother you when Canadian or Western money flows to Israel?

So yes, you are a hypocrite who creatively seeks to ignore what is actually been a extremely glaring issue for many years (ever wonder why the leaders of Hamas are so rich? of course not).

There is a reason despite Israel going out of their way to seek vengeance in Gaza, that countries like Jordan and Saudi Arabia still help them and still seek to make peace with them.

Oh also, this idea of 'oh look they killed civilians again', and using it as a designation to decide that both sides are equally bad, or even a terrorist state like Zary keeps pouting about when he takes a break from protesting is quite interesting, as the US has killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in the Middle East the past few decades, often with indiscriminate drone attacks where they actively said 'civilian casualties are acceptable at certain rate of terrorist to civilians that are killed.' This is the same doctrine that Israel is using in Gaza. Is the US a terrorist state as well? Did the US actively commit war crimes? Were individual US military members or commands reprimanded for their actions during those conflict? Does that mean the entire US military is a terrorist run organization, and by extension the US government, who commands the US military as well?

So yes, in case it isn't clear to you and the usual suspects, there is only one terrorist organization involved in this conflict.

I think that the US did in Iraq was a travesty. I am proud that Canada objected ( to the degree that they could) and I look at anyone who supported the actions of the US military with distain.

No one looks at US favorably in those moments, and certainly time will only uncover a greater distaste for what happened. Indeed, the USA's global standing in the fall out of that war was irrevocably damaged their global image.

More to that point, the war in Iraq proved that indiscriminate bombing in conjunction damaging social services and access to the necessities of life has created a much larger problem than what existed in the first place.

[zunie75]

How are you people not exhausted already? for 6 months a lot of you have been saying the same redundant things

- both Israel and Hamas are acting like terrorists
- both are capable of lying and exploiting media to frame events in their favor
- both have idiots on their side protesting about a situation they know nothing about
- both don't care about preserving lives opposite them in the conflict
- both have other countries supporting them for their own selfish reasons
- both are fully capable of actually fulfilling some of the conspiracy theories out there
- both have made incredibly stupid decisions when it comes to the level of violence
- both have an and end game that does not take into account the security of well being of their people
- both have bitten off more than it can chew

Seems like they have more in common than not. Yet you guys are still going around in circles trying to "debate" who's right or who's wrong or which wrongs are more acceptable because the other sides "wrongs" were worse.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Israel will be a bit of a pariah for a few years, mostly until Netanyahu is gone but ultimately this will be seen like Lebanon in '82

Maybe it's your little English colonial mindset but you've a pattern here of trying to minimize and normalize the slaughter of thousands of innocents including newborns and children.

No. It won't be seen like Lebanon. Social media has ensured that, despite their best attempts to stop the flow of information out of Gaza the world has seen that Israel is no different to Hamas. It's a US backed terrorist state with zero regard for innocent lives.

What has changed also is the antisemitism card has gone. Where once the likes of Nage Waza and the rest of the defenders of genocide could cry antisemitic everytime the world pointed out their disgust and revulsion at Israeli atrocities and that they were a bunch of terrorist, genocide supporting nutjobs this is no longer the case. Revulsion and disgust at Israel and its supporters is justified, demonstrable and a perfectly normal reaction to their disgusting atrocities.

And then there's the small matter of ICJ and their genocide legacy.

So no. Despite your sick attempt to minimize this, this is nothing like Lebanon. People don't look back at Lebanon and think of children getting murdered. Civilians being starved to death. Executed as they scramble for food. Aid workers being murdered. Health workers lured to their death and executed. And so on.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by zunie75

How are you people not exhausted already? for 6 months a lot of you have been saying the same redundant things

- both Israel and Hamas are acting like terrorists
- both are capable of lying and exploiting media to frame events in their favor
- both have idiots on their side protesting about a situation they know nothing about
- both don't care about preserving lives opposite them in the conflict
- both have other countries supporting them for their own selfish reasons
- both are fully capable of actually fulfilling some of the conspiracy theories out there
- both have made incredibly stupid decisions when it comes to the level of violence
- both have an and end game that does not take into account the security of well being of their people
- both have bitten off more than it can chew

Seems like they have more in common than not. Yet you guys are still going around in circles trying to "debate" who's right or who's wrong or which wrongs are more acceptable because the other sides "wrongs" were worse.

I view it more as shouting into to the void than as a debate. I am powerless, but still my heart goes to the millions of people whose lives have been defined and destroyed by the ability to kill a family without having to look at them in the face. Screaming that this is wrong does nothing but makes me feel better, which is worth some small something in the digital age.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I've kind of always thought this to be the case, however, the last few months proves that there is a segment of the population that will support Israel literally no matter what they do.

Like if Israel was to nuke Calgary and rape their mother they would be like "well she was asking for it, there's also no evidence. And yeah the nuke thing was only a small tactical nuke, not a lot of people got hurt, but they had to because of Hamas and Trudeau. Am Yisrael Chai!!!!!!!!"

I'm not sure what it is other than pure tribalism at this point.

I think it translates out as well to people supporting the west no matter what they do.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by zunie75

How are you people not exhausted already? for 6 months a lot of you have been saying the same redundant things

- both Israel and Hamas are acting like terrorists
- both are capable of lying and exploiting media to frame events in their favor
- both have idiots on their side protesting about a situation they know nothing about
- both don't care about preserving lives opposite them in the conflict
- both have other countries supporting them for their own selfish reasons
- both are fully capable of actually fulfilling some of the conspiracy theories out there
- both have made incredibly stupid decisions when it comes to the level of violence
- both have an and end game that does not take into account the security of well being of their people
- both have bitten off more than it can chew

Seems like they have more in common than not. Yet you guys are still going around in circles trying to "debate" who's right or who's wrong or which wrongs are more acceptable because the other sides "wrongs" were worse.

Most reasonable people are able to come to the conclusion both sides are reprehensible and need to stop. It's only the Israeli defenders who seem unable to accept this position. I don't really see anyone defending Hamas's actions.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Maybe it's your little English colonial mindset but you've a pattern here of trying to minimize and normalize the slaughter of thousands of innocents including newborns and children.

No. It won't be seen like Lebanon. Social media has ensured that, despite their best attempts to stop the flow of information out of Gaza the world has seen that Israel is no different to Hamas. It's a US backed terrorist state with zero regard for innocent lives.

What has changed also is the antisemitism card has gone. Where once the likes of Nage Waza and the rest of the defenders of genocide could cry antisemitic everytime the world pointed out their disgust and revulsion at Israeli atrocities and that they were a bunch of terrorist, genocide supporting nutjobs this is no longer the case. Revulsion and disgust at Israel and its supporters is justified, demonstrable and a perfectly normal reaction to their disgusting atrocities.

And then there's the small matter of ICJ and their genocide legacy.

So no. Despite your sick attempt to minimize this, this is nothing like Lebanon. People don't look back at Lebanon and think of children getting murdered. Civilians being starved to death. Executed as they scramble for food. Aid workers being murdered. Health workers lured to their death and executed. And so on.

You could be right but so far social media has made no difference to US support for Israel, or Israel's actions, they don't care what anyone thinks because they know they dont have to, Gaza is still ruined, social media has had no effect what so ever, it didnt in Syria or the Yemen either

The war will end and people will move on, they always have, the US will support Israel no matter what it does as it always has

As long as the US supports Israel and the rest of the world leaders (leaders not citizens mind you) don't care, which they dont then there is no downside to this for Israel

Oh and don't think this is me saying this is ok, it isn't Israel has massively over reacted and what is happening is basically genocide, but the part of me that has watched this for 60 years tells me this wont make any difference to anything, nothing will change except that Gaza will have been destroyed, 30 or 40 thousand Gazans will have died

[afc wimbledon]

People don't look back at Lebanon and think of children getting murdered. Civilians being starved to death. Executed as they scramble for food. Aid workers being murdered. Health workers lured to their death and executed. And so on.

That's kind of my point, they should look back on Lebanon that way, what happened there was evil and destabilized a country that has not recovered to this day, killed 20, to 30,000 lebanese displaced millions more, '82 was as bad as today but no one cares now, most arent aware it happened at all

[Azure]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think that the US did in Iraq was a travesty. I am proud that Canada objected ( to the degree that they could) and I look at anyone who supported the actions of the US military with distain.

No one looks at US favorably in those moments, and certainly time will only uncover a greater distaste for what happened. Indeed, the USA's global standing in the fall out of that war was irrevocably damaged their global image.

More to that point, the war in Iraq proved that indiscriminate bombing in conjunction damaging social services and access to the necessities of life has created a much larger problem than what existed in the first place.

But at the time it was seen as sound military doctrine. Though towards the end you could tell that wasn't accepted anymore as there was a difference between how the US carried out operations in Fallujah, and then Mosul in later years.

I mean it sounds and is really ludicrous to actually have an accepted military strategy when it comes to deciding whether to carry out an airstrike where a certain number of civilians being killed is acceptable if you kill the primary target. But that is the reality of war and has been for many years.

But your last point is key. In the end that military strategy likely doesn't result in success over the long-term, and even though I agree with AFC that Hamas is likely going to be eliminated, the actions of Israel has almost certainly created huge potential for future conflict.

[indes]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I've kind of always thought this to be the case, however, the last few months proves that there is a segment of the population that will support Israel literally no matter what they do.

Like if Israel was to nuke Calgary and rape their mother they would be like "well she was asking for it, there's also no evidence. And yeah the nuke thing was only a small tactical nuke, not a lot of people got hurt, but they had to because of Hamas and Trudeau. Am Yisrael Chai!!!!!!!!"

I'm not sure what it is other than pure tribalism at this point.

Did a bunch of Calgarians orchestrate a public attack and murder/rape/kill a bunch of Israelis first in your example? Here's the thing. A bunch of Calgarians wouldn't do that. They wouldn't do that because as a whole they don't obey a made up character that tells them they're special and should be locked in an eternal battle with everyone else who listens to a different made up character in a different story. Talk about tribalism.

Seems like its just a bunch of #######s over there, doing ####### things, like #######s do. Like they have for thousands of years. If there is a God, I hope he smites all those who murder/rape in his name, not just ones who pray to a different one. And I feel pretty confident that if there was a God, he would've done that a long time ago.

As if there's two contingents in this thread that are arguing over who's on the right side of this thing. News flash: No one is. Israel is a bunch of #######s, Gaza/Hamas? #######s. Iran? #######s.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Oh also, this idea of 'oh look they killed civilians again', and using it as a designation to decide that both sides are equally bad, or even a terrorist state like Zary keeps pouting about when he takes a break from protesting is quite interesting, as the US has killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in the Middle East the past few decades, often with indiscriminate drone attacks where they actively said 'civilian casualties are acceptable at certain rate of terrorist to civilians that are killed.' This is the same doctrine that Israel is using in Gaza. Is the US a terrorist state as well? Did the US actively commit war crimes? Were individual US military members or commands reprimanded for their actions during those conflict? Does that mean the entire US military is a terrorist run organization, and by extension the US government, who commands the US military as well?

You're conflating very different things though. The US didn't directly kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in the Middle East. The vast majority of civilian deaths occurred as a result of the insurgency, terrorist actions, and sectarian violence after the invasion. Based on the Iraq Body Count Project, only about 25K civilian deaths are attributable to US/coalition forces (and that includes Iraqi forces). You talk about Fallujah; there were an estimated 600-700 civilian deaths total in the nearly 2-month second battle. That's about 4 days worth of civilian deaths in Gaza.

Obviously the US was still ultimately responsible for setting the chain reaction that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. But to compare civilian death numbers between that and Israel directly killing civilians with bombs is ridiculous.

[corporatejay]

nm

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

You're conflating very different things though. The US didn't directly kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in the Middle East. The vast majority of civilian deaths occurred as a result of the insurgency, terrorist actions, and sectarian violence after the invasion. Based on the Iraq Body Count Project, only about 25K civilian deaths are attributable to US/coalition forces (and that includes Iraqi forces). You talk about Fallujah; there were an estimated 600-700 civilian deaths total in the nearly 2-month second battle. That's about 4 days worth of civilian deaths in Gaza.

Obviously the US was still ultimately responsible for setting the chain reaction that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. But to compare civilian death numbers between that and Israel directly killing civilians with bombs is ridiculous.

This is literally false, and quite honestly is complete hogwash.

There are a certain number of deaths that are indirect as a result of suicide bombers and other actions, such as actions by Iraqi Military or other civilian deaths as a result of ISIS or insurgent activity, but there are still tens of thousands of civilians deaths as a DIRECT result of US actions in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries. I am talking about direct US action resulting in civilian deaths. This includes airstrike, drone strikes, artillery, direct action missions, etc.

So yes the US has directly killed civilians, and even relaxed airstrike rules as an example in 2017 that lead to almost a 300% increase in civilian deaths at one point. The also have a military strategy in place where strikes were approved KNOWING that there would be civilian casualties.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by indes

Did a bunch of Calgarians orchestrate a public attack and murder/rape/kill a bunch of Israelis first in your example? Here's the thing. A bunch of Calgarians wouldn't do that. They wouldn't do that because as a whole they don't obey a made up character that tells them they're special and should be locked in an eternal battle with everyone else who listens to a different made up character in a different story. Talk about tribalism.

Seems like its just a bunch of #######s over there, doing ####### things, like #######s do. Like they have for thousands of years. If there is a God, I hope he smites all those who murder/rape in his name, not just ones who pray to a different one. And I feel pretty confident that if there was a God, he would've done that a long time ago.

As if there's two contingents in this thread that are arguing over who's on the right side of this thing. News flash: No one is. Israel is a bunch of #######s, Gaza/Hamas? #######s. Iran? #######s.

I don't see people marching in the streets of Canada saying kill Palestinians like the people marching and showing active support of Hamas and killing more Jews? Do you?

And yet our government and many institutions (Columbia University) is tripping over themselves trying to somehow justify those protests.

You can add more more item to the list of evil people. The countries that have for years been pouring money into Gaza knowing full well that it was supporting Hamas. And they all turned a blind eye to it. Sure don't see any protests in the streets about that though.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't see people marching in the streets of Canada saying kill Palestinians like the people marching and showing active support of Hamas and killing more Jews? Do you?

And yet our government and many institutions (Columbia University) is tripping over themselves trying to somehow justify those protests.

You can add more more item to the list of evil people. The countries that have for years been pouring money into Gaza knowing full well that it was supporting Hamas. And they all turned a blind eye to it. Sure don't see any protests in the streets about that though.

What is the alternative. Letting them all die?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

This is literally false, and quite honestly is complete hogwash.

LOL. If it's "complete hogwash" then why did you drop your estimate so much?

Originally Posted by Azure

the US has killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in the Middle East the past few decades,

Originally Posted by Azure

there are still tens of thousands of civilians deaths as a DIRECT result of US actions in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries.

Yes, the US has directly killed civilians and their standing in the world and their long-term security has probably been harmed because of it. And yes, some people would argue that the US committed war crimes in its invasion of Iraq; that's hardly a controversial contention. Why you seem to think that it's some kind of gotcha is baffling. Many of the same people criticizing Israel think the US committed illegal acts in the Middle East.

But surely you can see the difference between killing tens of thousands of civilians in countries with a combined ~100M population over a period of 25 years on the one hand, versus killing tens of thousands of civilians in a place with 2M people over the period of a few months, right?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

LOL. If it's "complete hogwash" then why did you drop your estimate so much?

Yes, the US has directly killed civilians and their standing in the world and their long-term security has probably been harmed because of it. And yes, some people would argue that the US committed war crimes in its invasion of Iraq; that's hardly a controversial contention. Why you seem to think that it's some kind of gotcha is baffling. Many of the same people criticizing Israel think the US committed illegal acts in the Middle East.

My post was a response to the ridiculous notion that Israel is a terrorist state, which is what is being spouted out by posters like Zary & the other usual suspects.

The U.S. post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, and Pakistan have taken a tremendous human toll on those countries. As of September 2021, an estimated 432,093 civilians in these countries have died violent deaths as a result of the wars. As of May 2023, an estimated 3.6-3.8 million people have died indirectly in post-9/11 war zones. The total death toll in these war zones could be at least 4.5-4.7 million and counting, though the precise mortality figure remains unknown. Civilian deaths have also resulted from U.S. post-9/11 military operations in Somalia and other countries.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/...uman/civilians

But surely you can see the difference between killing tens of thousands of civilians in countries with a combined ~100M population over a period of 25 years on the one hand, versus killing tens of thousands of civilians in a place with 2M people over the period of a few months, right?

Actually no. Hamas has spent years embedding themselves into the population. They have no issue using human shields, and in fact do it on purpose to get the response that we are seeing. They have spent years building out military infrastructure among civilian areas, including hospitals, schools & homes, and then spent years launching attacks from those areas. They also built tunnels among civilian areas such as the same schools, hospitals & homes to allow for movement of military resources in order to further launch their attacks. This very specific fact is repeatedly ignored when looking at Israel's overall actions and deciding whether they constitute as war crimes or not, or as Zary loves to spout out 'TERRORIST STATE.' If the goal is to eradicate Hamas, the solution looks exactly like what Israel is doing.

If you really want to blame someone for what is happening, blame all the countries that spent years funding Hamas while deluding themselves that the money was actually going to the people in Gaza. Likely the same people who are turning a blind eye to the fact that we have terrorists marching on the streets of Canada & other countries openly calling for the killing of Jews. I guess history has been lost on the morons.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

What is the alternative. Letting them all die?

There are aid organizations that are not corrupt, or to be more specific, terrorist sympathizers. Many of them are active in Gaza right now, and have even taken casualties while doing their great work.

This is not a single solution process, but our government is more inclined to appeasement & virtue signalling than they are actually making proper decisions.

[Bagor]

And we're back to the sick Hamas is making us kill all those children defence.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Azure

There are aid organizations that are not corrupt, or to be more specific, terrorist sympathizers. Many of them are active in Gaza right now, and have even taken casualties while doing their great work.

Yeah, too bad when they do people respond like this:

Originally Posted by Azure

Careful, the mob has already decided the truth, and this isn't it.