CWHL welcoming a trangender player

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Reading I don't know what the players think is, coming from the guy who presumes to say what is/isn't fair to a group he knows exactly as much about as I do is pretty rich!

I didn't make any statements about what the players think, or how many are in favor, I just pointed out the fact that, as expected, people with no information, connection, or interest in this league are making statements about what is/isn't fair to it's members.

How mind blowing that on a forum where people discuss their often unfounded opinions about hockey matters that now this is something your up in arms about. It’s his opinion you don’t have to agree or like with how the poster feels but you shouldn’t be lambasting them for it.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Originally Posted by DJones

There's no contact and she probably isn't any good so who cares.

No money to be made and not a big chance of injury. Completely different than that MMA fighter. That was just sick imo

Shortsighted. No saying a 6'4 male who played D1 college hockey couldn't transition into this league now.

[DenverFlame]

Fire On Ice: The Calgary Flames Forum: Everything pertaining to the Calgary Flames and NHL hockey in general.

Why is this in the Flames section?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Insane_Flame

Not only are you putting words in my mouth you are attempting to tell me what I will say next. Good way to have an open discourse. NOT.

Fact is, suicide rates remain the same for transgender people before and after their surgeries. Fact is, there is no scientific evidence that having these surgeries increases their quality of life. Explain to me why suicide rates remain the same? To clarify, I actually have no problem if a particular person wants to chop their wang off or vice versa. I just have a problem when I am forced to abide by an ideology and use speech that I do not agree with. That is fascism. By all means, do what you think will make you happy. Just don't expect me to pay for it or believe in it. THIS IS WHY THIS IS A "FREE" COUNTRY.
Apparently.

Who exactly is forcing you to use speech that you don't agree with?
When have you been forced to call someone something you don't want to call them? What laws am I missing, and what exactly do you think "fascism" means, because I'm not sure you know what it means. It certainly doesn't mean giving the slightest bit of consideration to people by referring to them in the manner that they prefer.

I'll be damned if I ever refer to my wife as Ms. instead of Mrs.!

[Phil Russell]

Tricky issue complicated by the fact that it has been stupidly politicized. Witness some of the conversation here.

But what if the players, in whatever women's sport this becomes an issue, were left to decide? Let the stakeholders decide and remove from the equation the so-called offended, and the so-called politically correct, most of whom will have their lives in no way impacted by the decision. Who knows better if there is an unfair advantage than the players themselves? And in some sports the players may not give a crap about advantages either way--other issues could be at play . . . put it in the hands of the players.

[Insane_Flame]

Originally Posted by DenverFlame

Fire On Ice: The Calgary Flames Forum: Everything pertaining to the Calgary Flames and NHL hockey in general.

Why is this in the Flames section?

It is an interesting conversation. Don't take part if you don't want to. Don't read if you don't want to. It is called freedom.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Monahan For Mayor

Shortsighted. No saying a 6'4 male who played D1 college hockey couldn't transition into this league now.

And at that point the situation would change. A 5'7 slender male taking testosterone blockers playing in a non-contact league doesn't really concern me.

A 6'4 monster that's 6 months into transition is completely different. You can look at each situation individually.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

There probably aren't a lot of 6'3" 220 lb transgender women chomping at the bit to tear up the CWHL.

Do you honestly think the woman who joined this league is a "typical" male?
She's 5'8" 155 lbs, pretty middle of the pack for that team.
1 pt in 16 games and a team average +/-
Yup definitely unfair.

What about when the next transgender to join the league is a ex D1 player, goes on to outscore the rest of the league 2 to 1. Now that they have allowed it to happen once they can't close the door on it.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

There probably aren't a lot of 6'3" 220 lb transgender women chomping at the bit to tear up the CWHL.

Do you honestly think the woman who joined this league is a "typical" male?
She's 5'8" 155 lbs, pretty middle of the pack for that team.
1 pt in 16 games and a team average +/-
Yup definitely unfair.

There are 2 completely different arguments going on in this thread.

I can't see any reason why this league who is a privately run organization shouldn't be able to allow whatever definition of gender they want into their league.

The other argument though is whether all levels of gender separated sports should allow or have to allow people to choose which gender they play with.

[Insane_Flame]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Who exactly is forcing you to use speech that you don't agree with?
When have you been forced to call someone something you don't want to call them? What laws am I missing, and what exactly do you think "fascism" means, because I'm not sure you know what it means. It certainly doesn't mean giving the slightest bit of consideration to people by referring to them in the manner that they prefer.

I'll be damned if I ever refer to my wife as Ms. instead of Mrs.!

I shouldn't have to call someone a potato if they identify as a potato. I will refer to someone based on their outward appearance to the best of my ability. I do not owe anybody respect who has not garnered it from me. If everyone deserved respect that the whole idea of respect is devalued and therefore rendered worthless.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Phil Russell

Tricky issue complicated by the fact that it has been stupidly politicized. Witness some of the conversation here.

But what if the players, in whatever women's sport this becomes an issue, were left to decide? Let the stakeholders decide and remove from the equation the so-called offended, and the so-called politically correct, most of whom will have their lives in no way impacted by the decision. Who knows better if there is an unfair advantage than the players themselves? And in some sports the players may not give a crap about advantages either way--other issues could be at play . . . put it in the hands of the players.

No, we need to dictate to them what is or isn't fair!

[H2SO4(aq)]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

There probably aren't a lot of 6'3" 220 lb transgender women chomping at the bit to tear up the CWHL.

Do you honestly think the woman who joined this league is a "typical" male?
She's 5'8" 155 lbs, pretty middle of the pack for that team.
1 pt in 16 games and a team average +/-
Yup definitely unfair.

It's not about this one case. it's about the precedence it sets. Next time it may be someone who is 6'3" 220lb.

I think you know this too but are pretending not to.

Also, as to your other point about suicide rates - the rates dont change if the person undergoes a gender transformation/transition or not. So it would seem that the real help needed is psychological, not physological as you suggested.

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

There probably aren't a lot of 6'3" 220 lb transgender women chomping at the bit to tear up the CWHL.

Do you honestly think the woman who joined this league is a "typical" male?
She's 5'8" 155 lbs, pretty middle of the pack for that team.
1 pt in 16 games and a team average +/-
Yup definitely unfair.

Typical or not, this is a precedent.

[Insane_Flame]

Originally Posted by Phil Russell

Tricky issue complicated by the fact that it has been stupidly politicized. Witness some of the conversation here.

But what if the players, in whatever women's sport this becomes an issue, were left to decide? Let the stakeholders decide and remove from the equation the so-called offended, and the so-called politically correct, most of whom will have their lives in no way impacted by the decision. Who knows better if there is an unfair advantage than the players themselves? And in some sports the players may not give a crap about advantages either way--other issues could be at play . . . put it in the hands of the players.

Perhaps if it were a secret ballot. People nowadays are unable to voice their true opinions if it goes against the mainstream narrative because if you go against the grain you will have an army of SJW's chomping at the bit to smear you and destroy you. FACT. I have seen it many times in media. The very loud far left minority always gets the big stage.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Originally Posted by DJones

And at that point the situation would change. A 5'7 slender male taking testosterone blockers playing in a non-contact league doesn't really concern me.

A 6'4 monster that's 6 months into transition is completely different. You can look at each situation individually.

I agree. The player being discussed probably isn't a big deal to the competitive nature of the league. I'm just looking at it in the long term. As a female hockey league i wouldn't want to see a 6'4 born male leading the league one day.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Yrebmi

Typical or not, this is a precedent.

Precedents aren't forever.

Lots of cases where things are allowed until it goes to far and someone puts a limit to it. Trans people in MMA is pretty much over now in MMA. Know one wants to touch that. The optics of a previous male beating the #### out of a female that didn't know what she is signing up for is just horrendous.

[Yrebmi]

well if there was going to be a secret ballot, that would have to be on the team members themselves. It's their league.

[Insane_Flame]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

No, we need to dictate to them what is or isn't fair!

"dictate" The problem with the far left summed up in one word.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Insane_Flame

I shouldn't have to call someone a potato if they identify as a potato. I will refer to someone based on their outward appearance to the best of my ability. I do not owe anybody respect who has not garnered it from me. If everyone deserved respect that the whole idea of respect is devalued and therefore rendered worthless.

You're right, you shouldn't have to refer to anyone in the manner they would prefer.
However, having even the slightest bit of common courtesy would dictate that it takes absolutely zero effort on your part to address someone as they prefer/have asked to be addressed. Zero effort on your part can avoid a lot of annoyance, embarrassment, or anger from someone else.

As for your idea of respect, you're right. We shouldn't have any respect for people we don't know. They aren't people, we don't need to show them any respect until they've proven they deserve it.
Why should we go out of our way to be courteous, mindful or respectful of people we don't know? It'd take zero effort, but they haven't earned even that.

Also you still haven't answered my question about who is forcing you to use language you don't believe in.
Clearly it's happening a lot if you are so up in arms about it.

[Insane_Flame]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

It's not about this one case. it's about the precedence it sets. Next time it may be someone who is 6'3" 220lb.

I think you know this too but are pretending not to.

Also, as to your other point about suicide rates - the rates dont change if the person undergoes a gender transformation/transition or not. So it would seem that the real help needed is psychological, not physological as you suggested.

I have already pointed this out to them. I doubt you will get a response to this fact.