SAIT vs University for Computer Career

[photon]

My son is graduating high school and he's been looking at where we wants to go into post secondary education in the fall.

His friends seem to be going to SAIT they say so he was thinking of doing the same.

He wants to go into "something computers", he does seem to like coding as he'll do it as a hobby sometimes.

We had a bit of a discussion about it but my thoughts could be pretty outdated so I'd like to get some input.

I told him SAIT I'm sure has some good programs however they're all pretty narrow, focused on a specific type of job. They may be good at getting you a job (and I'm not sure if they are, is a SAIT grad in demand?).

While if he did, for example, a computer science degree at a university that will give a far broader education, getting into all kinds of different things both computer and other.

It seems to me someone with a B.Sc. has a higher potential and more flexibility. Not to mention it's required if he wanted to progress higher towards a doctorate.

On the flip side university can be tough.

He's not very self motivated and doesn't have a clear focus on what he wants to do, which also leans me towards encouraging university which will have exposure to all kinds of different things vs a very focus program.

Or is my thinking old and outdated? Maybe everyone just takes some online courses or teaches themselves, gets good, and gets out there? I mean that's how I do it now but I started out with a B.Sc. and I feel it had lots of value.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by photon

He's not very self motivated and doesn't have a clear focus on what he wants to do, which also leans me towards encouraging university which will have exposure to all kinds of different things vs a very focus program.

I cant speak to the computer based programs at SAIT, but the good news with SAIT is that several universities recognized SAITs credentials and would give credit towards a degree afterward. For example in my diploma there were 2 universities offering transfer credits (2 years credit for a 2 year program). Neither of them were U of C or Mt Royal though which was a bummer.

I benefitted hugely from the straight and narrow courses for my program at SAIT, maybe that would be the right thing for your kid too.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by photon

My son is graduating high school and he's been looking at where we wants to go into post secondary education in the fall.

His friends seem to be going to SAIT they say so he was thinking of doing the same.

He wants to go into "something computers", he does seem to like coding as he'll do it as a hobby sometimes.

We had a bit of a discussion about it but my thoughts could be pretty outdated so I'd like to get some input.

I told him SAIT I'm sure has some good programs however they're all pretty narrow, focused on a specific type of job. They may be good at getting you a job (and I'm not sure if they are, is a SAIT grad in demand?).

While if he did, for example, a computer science degree at a university that will give a far broader education, getting into all kinds of different things both computer and other.

It seems to me someone with a B.Sc. has a higher potential and more flexibility. Not to mention it's required if he wanted to progress higher towards a doctorate.

On the flip side university can be tough.

He's not very self motivated and doesn't have a clear focus on what he wants to do, which also leans me towards encouraging university which will have exposure to all kinds of different things vs a very focus program.

Or is my thinking old and outdated? Maybe everyone just takes some online courses or teaches themselves, gets good, and gets out there? I mean that's how I do it now but I started out with a B.Sc. and I feel it had lots of value.

I'd boot him out to work for a year, if he has no clear focus and isnt self motivated you are just spending a fortune on something he will eff up at worst or not use or need at best

[The Fisher Account]

Yeah agree with the above.

I saw a lot of kids waste their parents money and have to drop out after first year university because they entered school with a lack of focus and motivation.

[RichieRich]

How about a combination of the above? Sign up for a limited number of classes whilst trying to “adult” on the side with a 10-15hr/wk part time job. Often, like in my case, having a less than stellar job may make him ask “do I want this or am I willing to work at school for more?” At least with part time he’s still engaged with school and academics and friends. Having a community of learning should encourage more learning and excitement versus sitting in his parents basement perusing CP forums.

Also… yeah I know of a few people who started post secondary on their parents dime (and or loans). Having one’s own skin in the game goes a lot further. I had a free ride first year but after f’ing it up the folks cut me loose. It took some pretty stressful times, crappy part time work, and deep thinking to realize that nobody else can do the work for you. Many Kids need more maturity and their butts kicked. Even if they don’t know not at the time.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

They are both good choices...why not look at the programs and classes and see which grabs you? I work at the University and also have a lot of good things to say about what SAIT is doing. At this point either will be fine IMHO.

[r00t]

SAITs ICT school just merged with their School of Advanced Digital Technology (SADT), they're doing some interesting things in the SADT and many of the programs will definitely provide some great industry ready skills. I participated as an industry contributor in the curriculum development for the software development program in the ICT school prior to the merger and we were definitely trying to help them build a program that led to skills we want out of new grads. Of note, an IT diploma at SAIT can include both network and telecommunications specializations which is a pretty broad view of "computer stuff". Some of the bootcamps and micro-credentials they're offering likely offer and even shorter path to employment.

As a computer science grad from U of C myself, I would say the difference between a computer science degree and many of the programming/dev programs is the theory that you learn in a CPSC degree. I had to learn more about software architecture, computability, algorithms, and general logic than a two year program could possibly teach. I also had to take the breadth requirements outside of the faculty that rounded out the very tech focused degree.

So, like you said, SAIT would likely lead to a job in a specific area where a Bachelor's Degree may provide a broader perspective and different opportunities. I guess neither one really closes any doors and there are tons of employers right now scrambling for tech skills. For example: I understand Neo Financial is so hard up for devs they're creating their own version of lighthouse labs with Harvest Ventures.

[Benched]

r00t spoke to UofC program, and I believe it, rings true (I never took computer science there but had always heard it was heavy programming/programmer focused)

I did go to SAIT though for a 2yr diploma in Computer Engineering, that led into continuing into another 2yr program to get my degree (Bachelor of Applied Science - specializing in Network Managment)

Computer Engineering diploma was a very general course, extremely hands on (as you’d expect from SAIT). We did printer maintenance (open and fix printers), build PCs, you take math classes on base 2 math, you do a lot of electrical work learning capacitor color codes, designing circuits, creating little circuits with AND and OR gates to solve puzzles. We also did some coding. Use programs to design circuit boards, that get printed, and then you would fabricate (solder) actual working electronic devices. That was also where you learn about basic networking, switches, routers, fixing networking issues (like I can’t connect to the internet - what do you do?) - which I loved!

Overall it was a very broad course, very basic labour/IT fix it career focused - but also very informative and builds a lot of competency.

With a broad focus you can also discover something you’re interested in. That’s what happened to me and why I chose to pursue Networking after my diploma. I had classmates with me do Networking, some to a coding focused degree instead, some to an electronics focused degree, lots stopped with their diploma and went to go work IT.

It may not have as much prestige or be as widely know as UofC, but I do think the SAIT program has value and is respected - at least in AB. Most importantly a wide base of learning may help spark an interest in a particular discipline that you can then pursue - much like it did for me.

[caveat - I’ve been working in telecomm (since I graduated) for 15 years. So I’m not sure what exactly the program is like currently as my experience was 15 years ago and I’m sure things have changed a bit since then]

I can’t speak to the current job market/demand for a SAIT grad, but I never had an issue finding a job (and in fact got hired by a manager with the same degree as myself).

I will say that having experienced both: UofC vs. SAIT for work load and ‘difficulty’ is not even close. UofC is a big step up after high school and takes focus, discipline (large classes, more distant instructors - so more self learning required and/or extra time put in to go to tutorials/office hours to ask questions & get help) and overall volume and level of work. SAIT is a much easier starting experience, not as big a jump (still feels like high school especially in regards to teacher support - lots of it, small classes, highly structured), not as demanding overall.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Photon, I think you have a pretty good grip on the pros and cons of each type of institution and the benefits they are going to provide. The challenge you face is an unfocused and unmotivated learner. This is not an uncommon problem as kids have way too many distractions in school that lead them away from developing an academic or vocational focus. When it comes to making that life affecting decision of picking a job, most are unprepared and really have no clue what they want to do. As a parent, you have to help prepare them for their future, which is no easy task.

It may be beneficial to remember that most people will change careers five to nine times in their lives. So with that in mind you may want to encourage your son to develop a strong foundation of skills that are transferable from career to career. That is where university and a classical education provide benefit. The exposure to various classes and ideas while completing lower division credits can help spark interest in what may be the life long career a young person is looking for. At worst, they develop the discipline and critical thinking skills that will aid them their whole lives. The hard part here is university is for people who do have the discipline to get study and get work done, and then also guide themselves through the wilderness of learning.

If your son does not have this ability, then a tech school like SAIT may be better for him. Tech schools provide the structure and rigor to keep students focused and driving toward a short-term goal. As a student you are going to get a quality education in how to perform a job. The skills developed are very focused to one vocation and may not be transferable to another. The larger picture learning is not going to be there, but the structure and focus to deliver job skills is much superior to that of a university. If your son is certain that he's going to want to cut code the rest of his life, SAIT has its benefits.

I think AFC's advice of letting him get a job for a year is not advice either. Some exposure to the real world and the 9-5 grind may shine some light on a path that makes the light bulb go on. Of course, the hard part is finding that job and in an industry where they might get the exposure they need to figure out that career ambition. Not an easy task as most high school graduates are going to get low paying, low skill, low responsibility jobs. So for some parents, this is not a great option.

One last thing I'll add is that you have to let your son know that learning is a life-long process. Just because they earn a certificate from SAIT or a diploma from an university, their learning has just begun. It is very likely they are going to have to return to the halls of higher learning in the future to upgrade their skills or get the education needed to climb the corporate ladder. Set this expectation and you will do your son a great service.

Good luck in guiding your son.

[OutOfTheCube]

I don’t know much about computer courses but as a fellow “unmotivated” learner I was glad I did SAIT first — it’s a lot more focused and guided. Then I worked for two years, and went and applied my credits to get a degree at U of C. I was glad I went there second when I was a bit older and more mature, University would’ve eaten me alive at 18.

[calumniate]

In my first year at uofc I took the first 'real' comp sci course.. think it was 231? After the first exam the class of 300 was down to like 150, lol. It was no joke.

I ended up passing but decided economics was the better path for me :d

If your son isn't so motivated at this time, SAIT might be the better option.

On the flip side - 1 year in uni allows you to take a wide spectrum of courses.. he may take a liking to something you never saw coming.. tough call!

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I think there's still a bias to 4 year university degrees in terms of wages and opportunities. For Computer Science I think that will get bigger in the short term. What we're paying young software engineers right now is nuts. And we can hire from anywhere in the country with remote work. I'd worry that a technician's job market is local.

That said the last couple years have been brutal for high school kids. I think many will be even less prepared academically, socially, and having any clue what they might want to do.

If going to SAIT with some friends who want to do well gets him going that might still be the best option. I can only speak for my kid but another year feeling stagnant would be the worst thing for him. Go do something and get some traction. You can always change direction.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

If going to SAIT with some friends who want to do well gets him going that might still be the best option. I can only speak for my kid but another year feeling stagnant would be the worst thing for him. Go do something and get some traction. You can always change direction.

I think I'd have to disagree.
If he's lacking motivation and has no clue of what he wants to do, going to school with friends isn't going to help.

I think it would make it worse as he'd just spend his time half assing the school work and partying with friends.

Better for him to get a job and not waste his parents money.

That being said, if he is going to school no matter what, I would say SAIT is his better option over uni.

[Strange Brew]

IMO an education at a Canadian public university is great value. It opens up entire careers that aren't available to those without a Bachelor's degree. Now college is tough for some people, but others will flourish in that environment and find motivation they didn't know they had.

I like the idea of working, but for some people a summer job is enough of an eye opener to help them realize that applying yourself at school is worth it.

Just my two cents, but nothing wrong with challenging yourself. I would give the same advice that you are leaning towards OP.

[photon]

Thanks for all the input so far, some interesting ideas.

To be fair to him I'm probably comparing his focus and motivation to myself at his age; I was laser focused and knew exactly what my path was but I'm not normal.

He lost so much of his early schooling to is Autism/ADD and he's done an incredible job of catching up, I rarely have to monitor him to keep up with his school work now, he's getting great grades, and who doesn't have time management challenges at that age.

There's some merit to the idea of half school half work for a year or something like that, especially for him.

Anyway again thanks for the great input, I will maybe sit down and read the thread with him to see what he thinks too.

[Hack&Lube]

U of C can be an awfully unfocused place for someone without a strong social network and a determined game plan. It's a commuter school and very emotionally isolating for kids who may not yet be ready for the full experience.

I echo the comments by other posters recommending he try some work experience for a year just to mature into taking responsibility for himself as I also think I went to U of C too early and I was just completely lost.

U of C also gives a broader education in all the different options you can take, but I find for those with learning issues, that it further confuses and dilutes the young student.

"Computer career" is an extremely broad subject and I think the key is to evaluate what his strengths are. If you think he has a talent for coding and want to push him into the developer route, ensure he has a strong math background as failing a few calculus courses can quickly get him kicked out of his program (as I found).

The other perfectly valid direction is more operational IT like networks, security, cloud infrastructure, etc. and that's where SAIT would be the better place for it and that path can also be extremely prosperous.

[GKDarts]

Have no experience with computer programs but do have some recent experience with the "not very self motivated" sentiment/perception and thought I would chip in on some of the 'tough love" type comments in this thread...

My eldest son was a good student in elementary and jr. high, when he worked he got good grades but never top of the class. He went to a well known, large public high school in SW Calgary and developed a friend group that were nice kids but definitely not very motivated academic achievers. These friends were much more interested in parties and pot rather than the honour roll. My kid floated with this group for three years, doing just enough at the last minute to get to 80% after digging himself an early semester hole he had to climb out of. Sometimes the hole was too deep (adios physics career!). By grade 12, outside of knowing he wanted to attend university, he had no idea of what programme wanted to do, no interest for any particular field and no hobbies that were associated with any vocation.

For years my kid had said he wanted to go away for university. He ended up settling for applying to business programs (decision based largely on "decision fatigue/quit pestering me/can make a decent living with an undergrad degree). He applied to a half dozen schools and was quickly accepted to Dalhousie commerce co-op program in Halifax. Dal does an amazing job on marketing and "client care" and he was quickly smitten by them. He only had eyes for Dal and informed us that was where he was going.

We have no connection to the East coast and while having the means to fund this "adventure" and having set aside RESPs, I didn't want to bankroll a semester of partying, probation and ultimately a Dean's vacation. Our solution was to make him carry all the costs of the first semester. Deal being that if he did well, we'd reimburse room and board and fund semester 2. Throughout this whole process, my kid smugly told us that he would just "turn it on" and kick butt in university and get straight A's . I told him that based on his body of work thus far, that wasn't a likely outcome. By the time he left for school, I figured there was a 50% chance this would be a one semester experience. My most optimistic expectation was that he would eek out a B average somehow.

Long story short, the kid was true to his word. Finished year 1 with perfect grades, Dean's list, scholarships, yada-yada. Finishing up year 3 and has a job offer upon graduation from his co-op employer. Great friend group, great girlfriend, continued great grades and a great experience at Dal (covid notwithstanding).

Looking back on it, the stress I had about his lack of motivation or direction in High school was based on my own experience and cynicism about just being able to flick a switch in university after not having done so at all in High school. In talking to my kid, having his own skin in the game that first semester certainly helped to focus him. He appreciated that we didn't go full tough love on him but rather set up something that put the responsibility to perform on him and provided incentives to perform. It's not to say that all kids will end up like this...

Also, I'd echo Gordon Blue's post...I think my kid would have been much less successful staying in Calgary with his existing friend group.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Wasting money is one thing, but I'd also be worried about what a pile of D's F's and Withdraw would do to someone's academic record. You can't outrun those and it will limit future options if he regains focus later on.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by GKDarts

Also, I'd echo Gordon Blue's post...I think my kid would have been much less successful staying in Calgary with his existing friend group.

I mentioned in my post but for sure it has to be friends who want to do well. A positive influence where they can collectively help each other with the transition.

I can only speak for my kids and their friends but they all do well in school. With little academic or social stimulation for 2 years there's been some degree of 'languishing'. They need to feel like they are going somewhere again. For every kid YMMV always applies.

Thanks for sharing your story. For my kid the question is university here or out of town. I lean to out of town, wife not so much. Pros and cons.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

I mentioned in my post but for sure it has to be friends who want to do well. A positive influence where they can collectively help each other with the transition.

I can only speak for my kids and their friends but they all do well in school. With little academic or social stimulation for 2 years there's been some degree of 'languishing'. They need to feel like they are going somewhere again. For every kid YMMV always applies.

Thanks for sharing your story. For my kid the question is university here or out of town. I lean to out of town, wife not so much. Pros and cons.

This is the way, but your kid has to want to do it too. The challenge with Canada's geography is that so many out of town options are very far away. Living in Calgary anyway.

My son is a high school senior and in the final steps of making his college decision. There are several great options within say a 5 hour drive.