[News] Kevin Hayes signs with the Rangers

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Completely

I think if that organization drafted you, and (assuming) has been there to help you improve throughout the years. You should sign with them and then if you aren't getting what you want you can ask for a trade or something might happen in a year or two.

I do think that Hayes not signing in Chicago is a win/win for both of them. Seems like this Hayes thing is just a headache, I'd just wash my hands of it and take the second. Then Hayes could go where ever he wanted to go. Whether it be in Florida with his brother, Calgary for his BC buddies, or anywhere else to get NHL playing time.

You can't blame the player. First, they don't owe the organization anything. That organization isn't able to invest in NCAA players. Chicago hasn't done anything for Hayes other than draft him. Second, making the NHL is very difficult. If you feel you have a better opportunity with another club and you have the option of going to that club why wouldn't you do it?

The rules are broken. As they say, don't blame the player, blame the game.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I'm actually not sure how much Chicago likes Hayes, they don't seem to be making much noise about him not signing or about trying to move him.

For all we know they might want the 2nd in what is supposed to be a pretty deep draft.

There was talk of the GM flying Hayes out to Chicago a month ago to be toured around with city with celebrity treatment.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I'm actually not sure how much Chicago likes Hayes, they don't seem to be making much noise about him not signing or about trying to move him.

For all we know they might want the 2nd in what is supposed to be a pretty deep draft.

Well, they did bring him to a playoff game trying to woo him. I think they are very interested in signing him. He is a decent asset, and one that is probably worth more than the 2nd.

As for moving him - no team is going to give up assets for him, considering that if they don't sign him, he walks on Aug 15th. Chicago will not be interested in moving him for less than a second round pick. Tough to to swing a deal in those conditions.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GoodUncle

I get the money issue. You just assumed when I chose the words "pony up" I meant $$$. I didn't. I'm talking playing time.

And how does Chicago "pony up" playing time? That would be extremely stupid for a team many consider a Stanley Cup favorite to do; give an unproven rookie NHL ice time without first proving he deserves it.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Well, they did bring him to a playoff game trying to woo him. I think they are very interested in signing him. He is a decent asset, and one that is probably worth more than the 2nd.

As for moving him - no team is going to give up assets for him, considering that if they don't sign him, he walks on Aug 15th. Chicago will not be interested in moving him for less than a second round pick. Tough to to swing a deal in those conditions.

I think the fact that he is worth at least a 2nd round pick (since Chicago would get the 54th overall pick next season as compensation if he doesn't sign) is enough reason to think Chicago will hang onto him until the deadline on August 15th.

Would any of you give up a 2nd rounder in the deep 2015 draft for a prospect like Hayes? Not sure I would... However I could see the rights to Hayes being used as a make-weight in any cap-saving trades the Hawks attempt to make before then. I reckon we could get Hayes before that deadline if we took a $£itty contract/player like Oduya off their hands...

Think I'd rather just wait and sign him in August.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by MattyC

That would be unfair as then NCAA players' rights would be held longer than those of their draft counter parts. It's the NCAA's long list of archaic rules that allow this to happen. Not allowing teams to pay for their travel and accomodations to attend camps. Not allow them to sign contracts, even if they don't take effect until certain conditions are met (ie, the 9 games for Junior players).

The NHL needs to make rules that work for the NHL. Don't want your draft rights to be held longer? Play in the CHL, or pressure the NCAA to change its rules.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by MattyC

That would be unfair as then NCAA players' rights would be held longer than those of their draft counter parts.

They already are held for longer in NCAA.
The Flames will hold Jankowski's right for more than 4 full years, assuming he stays in school all that time.
CHL is 2 years.

[Table 5]

There's a pretty easy solution. Let the players sign at any point in time while they are in College, but allow them to still play out their College careers if they so choose. The contract can start when they leave, and if there's no bonus money at signing, they aren't getting anything financial out of it during their college years. Why does it have to be an either/or situation for the NCAA?

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Table 5

There's a pretty easy solution. Let the players sign at any point in time while they are in College, but allow them to still play out their College careers if they so choose. The contract can start when they leave, and if there's no bonus money at signing, they aren't getting anything financial out of it during their college years. Why does it have to be an either/or situation for the NCAA?

I don't know, if college players had to choose between signing now and not getting signing bonuses or wait to sign and get signing bonuses, they would probably wait till they could sign a contract with bonuses.

The maximum amount for a signing bonus in the ELS is $277.5k spread in 3 payments. That is just for signing the contract, and no expectations of playing any games.

Seems like a big financial loss.

[Table 5]

Under my plan, they would still get the signing bonus, just not while they are still in college. They would get it as soon as they join the NHL organization in some capacity.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I feel for the Hawks. NCAA players should be under rights for an extra year after they finish their four so these situations don't occur.

The CHL players actually have the option to go this route 2 month sooner than NCAA player if they wish, and they get to "screw over" twice as many teams.

They can enter the draft, refuse to sign for 2 years, re-enter the draft wait 2 years. Then become a Free Agent some time late in June. they could spend their 18, 19, and 20 year old years in the CHL, then play a year in the CIS, ECHL European Leagues or AHL depending on who wants them.

At the end of the day players are people or private contractors or how ever you want to look at it, and the league can't force them to do anything until they sign a contract.

The draft is simply a way to evenly spread talent across the league, and sometimes s**t happens before or after players are drafted, and before or after they are sign. Injuries, Regression, not wanting to play anymore, and yes hold outs.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Under my plan, they would still get the signing bonus, just not while they are still in college.

Yeah then you have to rewrite the NCAA rules. Even the promise of payment once they leave college is a violation.

Amateurism – All Sports.

a. You are not eligible for participation in a sport if you have ever:

(1) Taken pay, or the promise of pay, for competing in that sport. [Bylaw 12.1.2]

(2) Agreed (orally or in writing) to compete in professional athletics in that sport.

Exception: Prior to collegiate enrollment, in sports other than men's ice hockey
and skiing, you agreed to compete on a professional team provided the
agreement did not provide for more than actual and necessary expenses and you
did not receive more than actual and necessary expenses. [Bylaws 12.1.2 and
12.2.5.1]

[Coach]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

They already are held for longer in NCAA.
The Flames will hold Jankowski's right for more than 4 full years, assuming he stays in school all that time.
CHL is 2 years.

A common misconception. A CHL player has to be signed within 2 years or they re-enter the draft, in which case the team that drafts them gets another 2 years to sign them and if they don't they become UFA.

So their rights can move between teams, but they still have zero choice where their rights lay for 4 full years. There are differences of course, but the amount of time before a player hits UFA is the same.

The biggest difference is one group of kids are allowed to attend main camp, and one is not. This is understandable from the NCAA point of view as they would probably stand to lose some of their more touted players sooner than they would like. Still, their scholarships aren't guaranteed, so it really shouldn't prevent them from obtaining work from an outside contractor (no different than any other student).

But not allowing the team to pay for them to come the city and attend camps is what makes the difference with the relationships between the kids. Not only do college players rarely get to be seen by their respective clubs against their own prospects, but the kids also feel little for the organization as they don't do much outside of the odd chat.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Yeah then you have to rewrite the NCAA rules. Even the promise of payment once they leave college is a violation.

And that's exactly why the NCAA is ridiculous. They should have no bearing on what you plan to do with your life after college. Nobody in my field of study gave a crap if I was making money on the side or where I planned to work when I graduated. Why are athletes treated differently?

All while they are making millions off of their athletes of course.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by SebC

The NHL needs to make rules that work for the NHL. Don't want your draft rights to be held longer? Play in the CHL, or pressure the NCAA to change its rules.

Terrible precedent to set for the NHL. College is a great avenue to go and the worst you come out of it is with a degree. The NHL should not be deterring 16 year old kids from going to college for a slim shot at the NHL. It's the NHLs job to find their players, wherever they may be, and to find ways to cooperate with the organizations their taking them from. The CHL and NCAA both have issues revolving around the rights of players. The NCAA is widely known, but the CHL can be a dangerous road too, and they are, more often than not, dealing with minors/high school kids.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by MattyC

A common misconception...

Misconception?
A team drafts a player before his first NCAA season, they hold his rights for up to 4 years.
A team drafts a CHL player, they hold his rights for 2 years.

There is no misconception, this is a fact.

Hayes was drafted end of June 2010. He becomes a free agent August 2014. The Hawks have held his rights for more than 4 years.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Misconception?
A team drafts a player before his first NCAA season, they hold his rights for up to 4 years.
A team drafts a CHL player, they hold his rights for 2 years.

There is no misconception, this is a fact.

But we're not talking about the team's rights, we're talking about the player's rights.

A player from the CHL or NCAA player can't choose where he signs for a period of 4 years. Period. A CHL player can choose NOT to sign after 2 years, but he is the re-drafted, not a free agent, and thus still has no say in his destination. The same team can even draft him if they want (I'm about 90% on that one). I'm honestly unsure about the rules with overseas kids.

And from the CHL a kid can sign, but still go back to junior and play until he's an overager if he wants, all the while the team can pay the full load for all his expenses and he can actually compete for a spot in main camp. The NCAA players don't have those options, but it's not because of NHL rules, it's NCAA rules. And again, the NHL should not be changing it's own rules to deter kids from getting education.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by MattyC

But we're not talking about the team's rights, we're talking about the player's rights.

Below is the OP and your response to him

Originally Posted by Cole436

I feel for the Hawks. NCAA players should be under rights for an extra year after they finish their four so these situations don't occur.

Originally Posted by MattyC

That would be unfair as then NCAA players' rights would be held longer than those of their draft counter parts....

I then responded to your post that they are already held longer.
I fail to see how we were not talking about a team's rights.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Below is the OP and your response to him



I then responded to your post that they are already held longer.
I fail to see how we were not talking about a team's rights.

Because if you make it so the team holds the rights for NCAA players for 5 years it's more attractive for the team, yes, but it's less attractive for the player. They can't do all of these things already, and now they also have to wait an extra year if they want to go to UFA (A whole year they won't be in school mind you). So what do they do for that time? Work a some random job waiting around for the NHL offer? They can't get into a career if they think they can go to the NHL. What if they have a chance to go grad school but are unsure of their NHL status because of this rule? It's just completely unfair and would cause an issue where the NHL is actively discouraging the education route for players. Remember, although the majority of junior players have dreams and think they can play in the NHL. Changing a rule like that would IMO cause a large group of mostly Canadian kids giving up prime education to chase NHL dreams. The NHL should not encourage that whatsoever. And you can tell me about the CHL scholarship program but it also has a whole pile of terrible loopholes to get you out of it. Not to mention CHL kids spend their last 2 years of highs school on a bus, hardly a recipe for success afterwards.

Look, if the NCAA allowed its players to sign contracts while attending school, just like CHL teams, the re-draft rule would be 100% exactly the same for both sides. It's the NCAA that blocks the NHLs ability to do this. And while the NCAA rule is incredibly stupid, it's the players right to choose that path and it should not be deterred by the NHL. It is deterred right now by the NCAA, not the NHL. The NCAA blocks kids from going from the CHL to college as well, because they get (very minimal) pay and thus is considered pro according to them. And the NCAA rules have nothing to do with NHL team rights, they are about restricting the players rights. It's all well and good for the NHL to lobby for changes to these things, but not in that manner IMO.

Long story short: It's the players rights, as limited by the NCAA, that cause this. It has nothing to do with how the NHL treats college prospects, as they do so only because they are adhering to NCAA rules.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Terrible precedent to set for the NHL. College is a great avenue to go and the worst you come out of it is with a degree. The NHL should not be deterring 16 year old kids from going to college for a slim shot at the NHL. It's the NHLs job to find their players, wherever they may be, and to find ways to cooperate with the organizations their taking them from. The CHL and NCAA both have issues revolving around the rights of players. The NCAA is widely known, but the CHL can be a dangerous road too, and they are, more often than not, dealing with minors/high school kids.

It's only a deterrent if you don't want to sign with the team that drafted you.