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Old 04-01-2009, 10:25 AM   #41
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Ok, so the trains get delayed because someone gets hit by one downtown and our system sucks as a result?

"Well it wouldn't happen if it was underground downtown!"

-Why not? Haven't people been struck at stations or fallen onto the tracks before? The same thing can happen in an underground station. Nothing will ever completely elminate delays due to situations like this.

I'm all for tunnelling the bad boy on 7th avenue, but how many of you would put up with the MASSIVE inconvenience and disruption to scheduled service that the construction would cause?
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:36 AM   #42
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Ok, so the trains get delayed because someone gets hit by one downtown and our system sucks as a result?
Our trains suck because they can hit someone and not kill them imo. Seriously, how to do get hit by a train and live?
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:59 AM   #43
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So basically Calgary's system is used more then Vancouver and Edmonton because those are the only other cities that fit your criteria.
It was a graph created to compare LRT systems to LRT systems - apples to apples.There are a handful of subway systems in NA as well including Toronto, Montreal, New York, Washington, Boston and Philadelphia you could potentially compare as well, because operationally, they're somewhat similar. You could also go as far as to compare heavy rail commuter lines, BRT lines and other technologies but that would start to not be a useful comparison.

It's useful to compare LRT systems to LRT systems because this is basically the chosen technology for rail-based rapid transit - there isn't really much large scale heavy-rail subway constructed anymore due to its huge cost. LRT is much more capital-efficient and is being built a lot on North America.

And, as the graph shows, for cities that rely on this system, Calgary performs very well, particularly for its small population and relative young age as a city. That's all.

Last edited by Bunk; 04-01-2009 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:04 AM   #44
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Well, if Calgary would stop being so stingy with it's transit system and put it UNDERGROUND, perhaps we wouldn't be inconvenienced for 30-90 min every couple months due to people getting hit.
Well, cars can't be hit underground, but people get hit. Standing too close to the train - plus subways are quite popular for suicides.

The plan is to move the NW-South line underground through downtown. Also the SE line will run underground downtown.

The problem is that all this costs a huge amount of money and it doesn't seem many Calgarians are willing to pony up the tax increases necessary to pay for it all. The province also is holding back it's money it promised for transit infrastructure ($2 billion). That could go a long way to get an 8th avenue subway.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:26 AM   #45
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And, as the graph shows, for cities that rely on this system, Calgary performs very well, particularly for its small population and relative young age as a city. That's all.
Why aren't there any European or Asian cities on the graph?
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:08 PM   #46
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Well, the graph wasn't tailor made for this debate. It was for the purposes of a study, which for its purposes only looked at North American cities. I suppose there is a variety of reasons - data was taken from the American Transit Association, which only publishes ridership in North American Cities.

It's also somewhat difficult to compare Calgary, which is about 110 years old to European cities that are centuries old. Totally different history and urban structure, and LRT systems are quite different.
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:26 PM   #47
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Let's also not forget how some of those older subways were built; on the backs of workers who often died, and people who couldn't find any other work or were new to the country. Construction deaths were considered to be part of the cost of doing business up until WWII.

If the city announced that they were going to re-build the line for a cost of $500 million and were going to do it by importing labour from Haiti, Philippines, etc and were anticipating approximately 100 worker deaths in the process; there would be outrage.

And even if they tried that in the late 70's it still wouldn't have flied.
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:28 PM   #48
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I used to despise Calgary Transit until I moved to Victoria. I couldn't live in Victoria without a car. In Calgary I got around just fine without a car.
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Old 04-01-2009, 02:55 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by llama64 View Post
Well, if Calgary would stop being so stingy with it's transit system and put it UNDERGROUND, perhaps we wouldn't be inconvenienced for 30-90 min every couple months due to people getting hit.

In a perfect world, you may be correct. Underground would efficient as you don't need to coordinate with traffic, minimal complaints from property owners about lowering property value, noise reduction...
However, from the consultants I talk to that deal with city/LRT planning, the simple fact is that building an underground station/track require 10X the money and the construction time.
Also, maintenance and safety costs increase, as it is harder to monitor sections of the track that are underground. Water, snow, garbage that gets into tunnels is harder to spot. Animals accidents become more common (generally rats and small creatures of course) while underground as well.
Interesting thing, and entirely related. The way NYC has been built and settled, Engineers have to remove millions of gallons of water everyday to prevent the subway tunnels from flooding.
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Old 04-01-2009, 02:59 PM   #50
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Our C-Trains seem to hit an inordinate number of people.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:01 PM   #51
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Our C-Trains seem to hit an inordinate number of people.
Maybe we should use the C-Trains to solve the homeless problem.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:05 PM   #52
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Try Vancouver if you want a real shat show.
Disagree.

Vancouver's system is quite a bit better, I've used both extensively. Calgary's is only good at doing one thing, getting someone from most areas of the city to downtown or back. Trying to go east-west or north-south in various parts of the city is a nightmare if you aren't on a line heading to or away from downtown.

Vancouver's on the other hand has transportation hubs in all the surrounding cities which are connected by Skytrain which does a loop instead of the typical Calgary system of piping people from the suburbs to downtown via C-Train but providing no C-Train routes for any other possible direction. Through the Vancouver Skytrain it is fairly easy to go from Vancouver to Burnaby to Coquitlam to New Westminster to Surrey, etc. Skytrain does not use drivers and they appear to have spent the extra money saved by this on security and have much better security as a result. Skytrain also is suspended above street level and therefore is not affected by traffic or people walking into or getting hit by the trains while walking across the street. Also Vancouver transit has several bus routes that run til 4 in the morning on weekends which is an excellent deterrant for drinking and driving.

I often talk to people about how the Vancouver system is much better. Surprised you feel differently I'd be shocked if most people who had tried both extensively would agree with your assessment.

Cons about the Calgary system
- C-Train at street level slows the whole C-Train system down via the crosswalks and lights downtown especially
- C-Train at street level allows for a much higher probability of accidents which both can injure or kill people and slow the whole system down
- C-Train requiring drivers may have some correlation between the lack of transit security in Calgary versus the Skytrain in Vancouver. These concerns about transit security have caused a proposal that the free fare zone in downtown be shut down to prevent some security issues
- The Calgary system is horrible for going directions that aren't directly to or away from downtown

Now of course there are probably some great engineering reasons why we can't have tunnels or an above street level C-train but trying to say that system is superior is something I can't agree with.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:05 PM   #53
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Maybe we should use the C-Trains to solve the homeless problem.
The do conveniently live right on the tracks...there is potential here.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:08 PM   #54
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I used to despise Calgary Transit until I moved to Victoria. I couldn't live in Victoria without a car. In Calgary I got around just fine without a car.
One of the reasons I think Victoria's public transit is lacking is because the provincial government spends most of the transportation dollars on Vancouver. But now that the Canada Line in Vancouver is finished, I think Victoria will get its own LRT line. There is talk of building a train line that goes from downtown along Douglas St. north to Colwood.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:13 PM   #55
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I used to despise Calgary Transit until I moved to Victoria. I couldn't live in Victoria without a car. In Calgary I got around just fine without a car.
But Victoria is so tiny. I could walk across it, powered by blackberries picked off of shrubs.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:14 PM   #56
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Three Words: FREE FARE ZONE
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:24 PM   #57
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Three Words: FREE FARE ZONE
Yep and because of the free fare zone you have drunken homeless people frequenting the train cars.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:44 PM   #58
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What I did find surprising traveling Europe last summer was that almost every major city had a much better transit system than Calgary's. And we're talking cities that had their core built hundreds of years ago. The subway/tram/bus systems of Prague, Barcelona, Paris, Budapest and Vienna were all well designed with routes going in many directions. They did not suffer from the funnel problem that Calgary has where the major fast routes only go to and away from downtown. I traveled with ease in these places solely with a combination of walking and transit.

If all you need to do in Calgary is go downtown and back or go somewhere on the train line like the University or Chinook then its acceptable for anybody remotely close to a C-Train stop. Trying to go from the NE to the NW, from anywhere to the deep SW, from the SE to the SW, etc is a complete disaster involving multiple bus routes that could take 2+ hours or worse depending on the frequency of certain routes and your timing in catching the connections. I had a summer job once where I had to basically taxi some employees from the newer NE suburbs to the newest W suburbs because transit would have taken that person probably over 2 hours. As it was it took about 45 minutes by car. Having a transit system that takes 3 times longer than by car to go to work is pretty ridiculous.

Anyways I get the sense that some people in this thread are just doing their usual rah-rah Calgary cheerleading role, just getting defensive about Calgary and blindly believing that our city can't really be that bad compared to most cities. I wonder if some of those people have visited or lived in a wide variety of Canadian, US and European cities and used transit there. That said clearly some people that have homes and business conveniently located such that their Calgary transit experience will be positive. But try and imagine going to every one of your friend's houses via transit and you'll soon realize that the system is far from ideal. Personally I can't agree with the idea that if most people can get from home to work (downtown) to home just fine then the system is alright. My standards are a bit higher after seeing what cities who were constructed long before Calgary have managed to accomplish.
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Old 04-01-2009, 04:06 PM   #59
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What I did find surprising traveling Europe last summer was that almost every major city had a much better transit system than Calgary's. And we're talking cities that had their core built hundreds of years ago. The subway/tram/bus systems of Prague, Barcelona, Paris, Budapest and Vienna were all well designed with routes going in many directions. They did not suffer from the funnel problem that Calgary has where the major fast routes only go to and away from downtown. I traveled with ease in these places solely with a combination of walking and transit.
Yes, that's what happens when you have literally poured a few centuries' worth of money into transportation.
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Old 04-01-2009, 04:33 PM   #60
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Yes, that's what happens when you have literally poured a few centuries' worth of money into transportation.
Not to mention that these cities that are hundreds of years old and have much higher densities than Calgary. Making public transportation a much more viable alternative for commuting.

Oh and the fact that most of the people in these places don't cry and whine about how increased density will ruin everything.
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