YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

If we're talking purely about the comments being a problem, and not the actual images themselves, then I have a suggestion. Call that person out for their stupid and inane comment and hold that individual accountable, rather than holding the entire forum hostage.

Self-policing has been presented as an option, but wasn't really discussed, so I'm glad you brought it up.

My question to that would be, how is that going to change anything? I mean the whole forum does a certain amount of self-policing, as any discussion forum, and it's clear the thread still bothers people.

I would also like to say that not all people think just the comments are the problem.

I have to tell you though, it will likely never stop because there are always idiots out there, and the price you have to pay for a free and open society and a forum where discussion is allowed under certain guidelines means that you have to endure reading stupid crap from people like that once in a while.

This is kind of my feeling about it, which is actually a part of the reason why I don't think self-policing the comments would do much.

I also think that having a thread like that permeates the idea that it's okay to be constantly looking at women from the POV of whether they're hot or not. Whether this is true or not is complicated of course.

Now, if someone can indicate to me that the forum, or that thread, is actually breeding hatred towards women, or is subtly undermining their status in this forum, then I'm all for getting rid of whatever that thing is that is causing it.

I'm pretty sure no-one has suggested that the YLYL thread is breeding hate. If it was I'm sure there wouldn't be a discussion. My personal objection to the existence of the thread is really on the grounds that the existence of that thread normalizes the idea that it's okay that in a supposedly gender-neutral but male dominated environment, girlie pics are okay to have around, even though it makes some people (men and women) uncomfortable.

As an extension there's a question of whether or not girlie pics prop up a culture of objectifying and sexualizing women regardless of consent, both in general society and on this forum.

So, nobody is saying that CP is doing anything that the society at large isn't doing.

Now, I was more on the fence than anything before this thread started, but the fact that people seem to think there would be something radical about not having a girlie pic thread on this forum convinced me that yeah, this normalization thing, it's totally a real thing.

I know for a fact that not every large sports forum has a thread like that.

[photon]

We didn't even have a thread like that until recently.

Lol I just checked it was started in 2010.. frack that feels recent

[driveway]

I am really happy there is at least a discussion going on as to whether or not the thread is valuable. I think that's a step in the right direction.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Sorry, I have to call bull#### on this paragraph. These are all considered perversions in sexual definition terms. I wouldn't suggest that any of these are considered "natural". Your point is crap.

And being gay was considered a perversion until quite recently in human history. That doesn't mean it wasn't a natural instinct until recently, it just means that society has determined it acceptable. My point still stands.

[JiriHrdina]

Poll added. Not that something this complicated can be boiled down to a poll - but it will at least give us some info on how the community feels.
I can add other options if folks have suggestions.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...al+Perversions

I don't want to derail this any further quite frankly, but what FireFly and Thor are talking about are two completely different things and it's a false equivalency argument that pisses me off.

From your own link:

Sexual Perversions
Definition

Sexual perversions are conditions in which sexual excitement or orgasm is associated with acts or imagery that are considered unusual within the culture. To avoid problems associated with the stigmatization of labels, the neutral term paraphilia, derived from Greek roots meaning "alongside of" and "love," is used to describe what used to be called sexual perversions. A paraphilia is a condition in which a person's sexual arousal and gratification depend on a fantasy theme of an unusual situation or object that becomes the principal focus of sexual behavior.

Emphasis mine.

I'll reiterate that being gay was considered a sexual perversion. In fact, in many places, it still is. Would you also say that being gay is not a natural state for those who consider themselves gay?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

@ Itse

It seems to me that the major objection, to anyone that actually has an objection, is the comments and not the pictures. Those who have objections to the actual pictures seem to be splitting hairs as to what's objectionable and what's not, and then we're down to subjective reasons for being offended rather than trying to be inclusive…then we're back to
Stephen Fry's quote and I cease caring.

I don't believe that the thread reinforces the point of view to judge women on whether they're hot or not, that assumes too much. If the commentary or the imagery becomes highly objectionable the mods should be stepping in to either make comments as to what's appropriate (still TBD) and give warnings based on that. I say again, we, as a community, can decide what the thread should and should not be, and then ask the moderators to enforce it. That takes out the self-policing issue which I don't like much anyways because it gets into public shaming which is also problematic.

No, not every forum has a thread like that, but this is a large and varied posting community and I would argue that even though it started as a hockey community it's now a community on every topic under the sun, including this one. This thread would never exist on another sports forum website because they wouldn't let such a controversial subject go on for so long.

I think you're assuming too much about the community at large on CP and we haven't really heard a lot of opinions from people who frequent the thread to hear how they view it and use it. This is why I think a poll is in order to really get a sense of what people actually think.

Then again, I can still remember from sexual harassment training the old adage, "It's not about your intent, it's about the impact." This is again why I suggest polling the female population on this site, and if the overwhelming majority says get rid of it, then do it. See my earlier post with possible solutions I mentioned.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by FireFly

From your own link:



Emphasis mine.

I'll reiterate that being gay was considered a sexual perversion. In fact, in many places, it still is. Would you also say that being gay is not a natural state for those who consider themselves gay?

*sigh*, well you'll notice that they don't list being gay as a sexual perversion. That's because there's been a lot of science that shows a distinct genetic component to it, hence natural. You also see homosexuality in other species besides humans, therefore natural, but I doubt you see a lot of interspecies sex anywhere.

Besides the point, that the cause of perversion usually comes from arrested sexual development to the point of fixation on a particular subject or object, or a traumatic event. These are directly out of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) the handbook for psychologists. If you have issues with their wording, take it up with them. You can't lump the disorders you listed with the science of sexual attraction that Thor was talking about because it's a false equivalency. One is the product of evolution and the other is a product of an individual's maldevelopment.

If you're going to debate this further, try not to use hyperbole to back up your arguments. It makes it seem like you don't have anything other than rage to add to the conversation.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Poll added. Not that something this complicated can be boiled down to a poll - but it will at least give us some info on how the community feels.
I can add other options if folks have suggestions.

How about "Keep it but encourage more inclusive content"?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

How about "Keep it but encourage more inclusive content"?

I literally have no idea what that means. Please explain.

Besides, people have been free to post what they want and haven't up until now. Do we need affirmative action for other attractive images. Just confused as to what you expect to happen.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I literally have no idea what that means. Please explain.



Besides, people have been free to post what they want and haven't up until now. Do we need affirmative action for other attractive images. Just confused as to what you expect to happen.

"Do we need affirmative action for other attractive images"?
No need to be dickish about it. Relax.

Part of it would fall under the stricter moderation of not allowing people to post negative comments like "too fat" or "too skinny" or "too many tattoos" or whatever. That alone would probably make it more inclusive and encourage people to post a variety of women instead of the carbon copy photoshop model forever.

Otherwise, namely: Men.

It probably doesn't make sense for women or men who enjoy other men to have their own thread since the population seems to be a lot smaller than the straight-male crowd, but I think having one "Mega Thread" that a woman or man can come in and say "Has anybody seen this guy? Amazing!" (Much like the Lundqvist commercial that was shared a bit ago) is a lot more inclusive and fitting to a fun atmosphere than it just being women (and a strict type at that).

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by photon

Good thing no one's done that.

Lol wut. Within the first two pages:

Originally Posted by Peanut

Yes it's the objectification that veers into misogyny (presenting a woman as a trophy, decoration, or otherwise removing the more "human" characteristics of a woman, such as her face, and presenting them only as a sex object). I believe that falls within the definition of misogyny but I'm no means an expert..

Originally Posted by Itse

Well the obvious thing is that it's very existence normalizes the idea of sexualizing and objectifying women. After all, it's simply taken for granted that a supposedly gender neutral hockey forum has a massive girlie pic thread.

Second, it's mostly just very heavily photoshopped pics. Some of the photoshops are so grotesque that I honestly think only people who have not seen a lot of naked women in real life could find the pictures attractive. At least for me it's uncanny valley galore.

This seriously distorts the ideas of beauty, and the thread is only about women, so again, sexist. This if course is not a CP thing, it's just the world.

Third is of course the types of pictures in those threads. It's the part where it gets complicated, which is why I'm going to skip the more radical feminist views (which I'm aware of, but it really is a complicated topic) and just point out some stuff which I think is more blatantly problematic.

Again. Total self righteousness. From the same poster (peanut) who was busted in objectifying a man.

People are objectified everyday. Women can't get enough of my hair and tell me I have an amazing ass. Who cares? I'm not gonna whine about it. You guys are acting like only dudes do this. Hahahhaha

These girls are attractive. So what.

Girls, feel free to make a hottie guy thread. I promise I won't be upset.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I literally have no idea what that means. Please explain.

Besides, people have been free to post what they want and haven't up until now. Do we need affirmative action for other attractive images. Just confused as to what you expect to happen.

There has been people trying to quite vocally hold up a "standard", which mostly means lots of photomanipulation and only a very narrow definition of "hot" accepted. So it really hasn't been inclusive at all.

Not sure what you could do about that, but I guess the thread being more inclusive would mean that you could, even if you're a minority, go tell those people to "STFU this is what I like".


(Btw, the post that starts @Itse, I'm out of thanks but good post.)

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

"Do we need affirmative action for other attractive images"?
No need to be dickish about it. Relax.

Part of it would fall under the stricter moderation of not allowing people to post negative comments like "too fat" or "too skinny" or "too many tattoos" or whatever. That alone would probably make it more inclusive and encourage people to post a variety of women instead of the carbon copy photoshop model forever.

Otherwise, namely: Men.

It probably doesn't make sense for women or men who enjoy other men to have their own thread since the population seems to be a lot smaller than the straight-male crowd, but I think having one "Mega Thread" that a woman or man can come in and say "Has anybody seen this guy? Amazing!" (Much like the Lundqvist commercial that was shared a bit ago) is a lot more inclusive and fitting to a fun atmosphere than it just being women (and a strict type at that).

To respond to the bolded part first: Why the hell not? The whole point is that you can have a thread of your own any time you want and nobody does it. You already have the freedom and choose not to exercise it. I don't get what you're trying to accomplish other than forcing other people to view what you consider attractive to prove a point of some sort. The thread already exists, and has had for a while, without any complaints until recently. There have also been hot guy threads as Minnie illustrated earlier, which might have been worse than the hot girls thread since the hotties were being drafted and ranked according to their looks.

If it feels like I'm being "dickish" it's because I feel like we're trying harder and harder to appease a vocal minority (a very small one at that) at the expense of what the community at large wants. I'm hoping the poll will put the debate about what to do at rest.

That's it, I'm out for the night. You can all decide what to do from this point. I've said my piece.

[Yasa]

I guess I'd say "Leave it as it is" only because I don't care about the thread. It's not that I don't care about misogyny or that I think misogyny doesn't exist here, but I don't think that dealing with the YLYL thread would change much of anything. I think it would cause a much more jagged divide between posters.

I understand that closing it could show a zero-tolerance attitude towards misogyny here (and that's great!), but I don't think that's the way it should be handled. Threads like this one would have a better impact, I'd say, because at least we're getting the opinions from affected posters and starting a discussion.

Regardless, I do find the whole idea of YLYL kind of weird. Like a bunch of dudes (and even ladies) sharing trading cards of their favourite models. I like porn and sexy photos as much as most people, but I don't post it on forums waiting for validation of my tastes.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

To respond to the bolded part first: Why the hell not? The whole point is that you can have a thread of your own any time you want and nobody does it.

Thing is, the women are a minority here, so there's no way they can fix the imbalance on their own.

Besides, I think it's fair game. If you can't take it, don't dish it.

There have also been hot guy threads as Minnie illustrated earlier, which might have been worse than the hot girls thread since the hotties were being drafted and ranked according to their looks.

Actually, guys started their draft first. It was pretty elaborate, with numerous categories and voting and everything.

[nik-]

Couldn't there be an option for keep it but make a male equivalent? Seems like a good opposite option to the "make it inclusive".

I personally am not voting because I don't really care if anything happens to that thread

[Peanut]

I voted for keep the thread but moderate it.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the difference between Henrik Lundqvist's commercial for underwear and images of just an ass being slapped, or bouncing tits, that may or may not have been photographed or distributed with the persons consent, and who may or may not be underage. Because all of those things exist in the YLYL thread and that's what I was referring to as "the issue". I'm not trying to police anyone's sexuality here.

I kicked this debacle off and I obviously should have chosen my words much more carefully. I think there is a high prevalence of sexism on this site. I thought that objectification was included as part of the definition of misogyny, but it seems that is arguable. So, sexism, not misogyny. SOME POSTS within YLYL is one example of the sexism on this site, but as Eastern Girl said, it spreads to other threads. It's noticeable for me. It contributes to me spending less time here and posting less in general. And I work in a male-dominated field, and I'm not a troll. I think my tolerance for low level sexism and objectification is sadly pretty high.

Anyways. I don't have the answers and I find the argument exhausting, probably mostly due to sheerly being totally out-numbered as a female poster on this board. I report the worst of the posts that I see to the mods and assume it gets dealt with if they feel it's warranted. And I just don't even go into the YLYL thread.

[Itse]

nm

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Anyways. I don't have the answers and I find the argument exhausting, probably mostly due to sheerly being totally out-numbered as a female poster on this board. I report the worst of the posts that I see to the mods and assume it gets dealt with if they feel it's warranted. And I just don't even go into the YLYL thread.

Which reminds me, there was talk about asking what the women think, but there really hasn't been that much of it.

(Sorry.)