I believe that animal products are just as important to health as fruits and vegetables. Of course, I also buy all of my meat from a local farmer's market where all of their animals are 100% free range and grass finished.
Speaking of feeling like death, I used to live a block away from an extremely popular vegetarian / vegan restaurant in Vancouver. (I try to avoid the place like a Ron Swanson, but my wife likes it, so we go occasionally). It's like the walking dead in there. Seriously. I find it hilarious that these vegemites walk around like they are perfect health incarnate. Yet every one of them looks pale, or worse, grey, and all of the women have zero lean muscle mass and impressive muffin tops. (Not saying your fruit and veggie diet is unhealthy, Vektor, just a little anecdote)
PS. I think you'd be surprised at the nutritional content of healthy animal products. I think it was Robb Wolf of The Paleo Diet who spoke of a study where they blended up either grass fed meats or a variety of vegetables and had an independent lab analyze the 'paste'. Each time they did it, the animal specimen showed higher amounts of virtually every nutrient. Don't quite me on this though. The gist is correct, but I'm going off a few years memory here.
you people are mistaking what I mean, I eat meat too. I'd challenge any person on this forum to go to a physician with me and we both have our blood checked and see who is healthier. I guarantee none of you would come close because of how much effort I put into being healthy. We don't disagree, I agree there are nutrients in many animal products. The key is that vegetables and fruits help clean your body of all the crap and waste that lines your insides. A diet high in vegetables allows you to digest the meats and carbohydrates much more effectively causing you to need to eat less to be able to absorb the same amount of nutrients required. There are a few foods that I find are imperative for everyone to have in their diets:
-asparagus, spinach, kale, carrots, broccoli, flaxseed, hempseed, high quality butchers fish, bluerries, lots of olive oil, whole grain pastas
sure you can add things here and there such as goji berries, but in Canada these are the most readily available and healthiest foods around for the most cost effective diet.
And most meats people consume come surrounded by unhealthy carbohydrates or with preservatives or both, that's all I was saying. You walk through and compare the raw unprocessed meats and look at the processed meat with preservatives and you'll see one greatly outnumbers the other in the grocery store.
Last edited by vektor; 04-10-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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Why can't we just be like dogs. We put the dog on a lean diet, one simple bag and a couple of months later she started getting her girlish figure back. So simple.
I'm liking what vektor and shogun are saying. Only thing about veggies and fruits is the inputs to these. Do you guys eat organic? I prefer to grow my own but this is hard to do in the city. My greenhouse is only 10 square metres but it keeps us in spinach, lettuce, tomatoes and snap pees most of the year with only 5 minutes of power an hour to run a pump. It is half underground and insulated on the north and south end. Plants are fine up to about -25 outside with no heater.
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In Alberta it is common practice to apply sludge or biosolids to agricultural lands as a nutrient source, however this must be done in accordance with standards and guidelines developed by Alberta Environment. Challenges and benefits
The issues and benefits associated with this type of application are extensive, as are its benefits. Issues involve contamination of the receiving soils with metals, chemicals, drugs and pharmaceuticals, as well as changes to soil properties and chemistry, from repeated applications. The benefits of sewage sludge application are its nutrient value and its use as a soil amendment rather than burning or landfilling it. The Guidelines for the Application of Municipal Wastewater Sludges to Agricultural Lands are well-established, designed to maximize benefits and reduce potential hazards.
And most meats people consume come surrounded by unhealthy carbohydrates or with preservatives or both, that's all I was saying. You walk through and compare the raw unprocessed meats and look at the processed meat with preservatives and you'll see one greatly outnumbers the other in the grocery store.
That's very poor logic. You could just as easily say they're are pickles on my big mac. Pickles are vegetables. Therefore, all vegetebles are unhealthy.
I eat all organic, the difference is noticeable to me. Mongoloid carrots that taste like wood and spinach that's squishy and floppy aren't my thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
That's very poor logic. You could just as easily say they're are pickles on my big mac. Pickles are vegetables. Therefore, all vegetebles are unhealthy.
no, it's not poor logic at all. You clearly didn't understand what I meant and your point is irrelevant to what I had to say.
I'd challenge any person on this forum to go to a physician with me and we both have our blood checked and see who is healthier. I guarantee none of you would come close because of how much effort I put into being healthy.
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Okay, back in 2009 I went to my doctor and asked him what my ideal weight would be. He said, based on my height and the BMI calculator, I should be between 150 and 180. So we settled on 170 since I didn't want to right on the upper edge of being overweight. And I even went past the 170 down to the low 160s.
However, over the winter, my weight started to creep back up to the 170 area so I started putting in more hours exercising, but my weight was not going down any. I talked to my physiotherapist who is also a personal trainer and he got a good laugh. He said my legs are solid muscle mass. He also said that I was using my Tanita body composition scale wrong. If you exercise more than 10 hours per week (I do 14) and have a resting heart rate of 60 beats per minutes or less (mine is 44), you are supposed to put the scale in "athlete mode". Which takes my body fat % from 12% down to 5%.
I think I am going to take a trip to Toronto (I was planning on heading down soon anyway to visit friends) and get a DEXA scan just be sure that I'm more towards the 5% than the 12%. I've heard from some people that any of the bioelectrical impedance scales are wildly inaccurate. But I want to have some hard statistics to take to my doctor before getting him to raise the 170. He has been reluctant in the past because he thinks that would give me the green light to eat junk food and the 170 holds me in check, but I'm having a horrible time trying to stay under that number.
The other issue is that my doctor is a firm believer in BMI, which many people believe is absolute garbage. So I guess where I am going with this is - how do *you* know what a good weight range is for yourself?
Okay, back in 2009 I went to my doctor and asked him what my ideal weight would be. He said, based on my height and the BMI calculator, I should be between 150 and 180. So we settled on 170 since I didn't want to right on the upper edge of being overweight. And I even went past the 170 down to the low 160s.
However, over the winter, my weight started to creep back up to the 170 area so I started putting in more hours exercising, but my weight was not going down any. I talked to my physiotherapist who is also a personal trainer and he got a good laugh. He said my legs are solid muscle mass. He also said that I was using my Tanita body composition scale wrong. If you exercise more than 10 hours per week (I do 14) and have a resting heart rate of 60 beats per minutes or less (mine is 44), you are supposed to put the scale in "athlete mode". Which takes my body fat % from 12% down to 5%.
I think I am going to take a trip to Toronto (I was planning on heading down soon anyway to visit friends) and get a DEXA scan just be sure that I'm more towards the 5% than the 12%. I've heard from some people that any of the bioelectrical impedance scales are wildly inaccurate. But I want to have some hard statistics to take to my doctor before getting him to raise the 170. He has been reluctant in the past because he thinks that would give me the green light to eat junk food and the 170 holds me in check, but I'm having a horrible time trying to stay under that number.
The other issue is that my doctor is a firm believer in BMI, which many people believe is absolute garbage. So I guess where I am going with this is - how do *you* know what a good weight range is for yourself?
You do not have 5% body fat. That's the kind of body fat that competitive body builders will have before a show. It's almost impossible to maintain a bf% that low, and it's very difficult to reach it without steroids.
There are reports of guys like Michael Phelps and Manny Pacquiau having 5% BF. However, when you get that low, it becomes extremely difficult to actually measure your BF. My guess is that these guys are slightly higher than that and would come in closer to 7-8%.
Either way, if you were concerned about being overweight to the point you needed advice from a physiotherapist, you would not have 5% BF. At 5% BF you have veins popping out of everywhere and a tiny tiny waist.
Since your ideal weight is between 150-180 lbs, I'm guessing you are 5'9'' or so. At 5'9', 170lbs, and 5% body fat, you'd be making the guys like 300 look scrawny and out of shape. Think something like this:
You do not have 5% body fat. That's the kind of body fat that competitive body builders will have before a show. It's almost impossible to maintain a bf% that low, and it's very difficult to reach it without steroids.
There are reports of guys like Michael Phelps and Manny Pacquiau having 5% BF. However, when you get that low, it becomes extremely difficult to actually measure your BF. My guess is that these guys are slightly higher than that and would come in closer to 7-8%.
Either way, if you were concerned about being overweight to the point you needed advice from a physiotherapist, you would not have 5% BF. At 5% BF you have veins popping out of everywhere and a tiny tiny waist.
Body builders tend to dip into the dangerously low levels of body fat that are not maintainable. 3% is the vital amount for men; you need a certain amount around your vital organs, among other things. Body builders also take diuretics. If you compared someone with 5% body fat on diuretics vs no diuretics the difference would be dramatic.
It does not get any harder to measure body fat at these low levels with DEXA or hydrostatic weighing. I'm ~6% body fat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate
The other issue is that my doctor is a firm believer in BMI, which many people believe is absolute garbage. So I guess where I am going with this is - how do *you* know what a good weight range is for yourself?
Just my opinion, but it seems to me you're being a bit obsessive. Yes, BMI has a limited scope within the general population. Yes, DEXA is the gold standard of measuring body fat. And yes, when speaking from a purely health perspective it's best to be as lean as possible (ie 5% - 10% body fat for a male).
Practically, however, I think it's a little ridiculous to nitpick. When do you feel best? Is the difference between 175 lbs and 165 lbs for you a dozen hours of exercise a week? Is that worth it? What do you think is a good balance for you between exercise, eating, and enjoying yourself?
I think it's best to focus on the good habits and find something that's maintainable for you.
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Everyone's body is different. Your ideal weight is the weight at which your body can heal injuries the fastest and give you the most energy throughout the day.
Body builders tend to dip into the dangerously low levels of body fat that are not maintainable. 3% is the vital amount for men; you need a certain amount around your vital organs, among other things. Body builders also take diuretics. If you compared someone with 5% body fat on diuretics vs no diuretics the difference would be dramatic.
It does not get any harder to measure body fat at these low levels with DEXA or hydrostatic weighing. I'm ~6% body fat.
.
There are reports of 3% bf, but it depends on how the measurement is made. Also that bf is never maintained for more than a couple of days.
Hydrostatic weighing is most certainly not 100% accurate either. It depends on mathematical formula and density. Things like lung capacity, hydration, bone density, how much food is in your intestinal tract, etc... will all affect the measurements.
I do agree with you though that hydration makes a huge difference. My point was that 5% bf is ridiculously low, and if you were that low then there would be no questions about your personal obesity levels.
If you are maintainign 6% that is extremely impressive. I'd be interested to see your diet/routine.
I don't doubt I am not at 5%. I know the scale to be ridiculously inaccurate. Which is why I want the DEXA scan.
FYI - I am 5 foot 11 inches, not 9 inches.
For 5ft9 the BMI range is 125 to 169.
For 5ft11 the BMI range is 135 to 179.
I would be super happy reducing my exercise levels and sleep in a bit more or have a few nights to just kick back and only watch the game. And if I could do that and maintain 175, I would be more than happy with that. I just need to get my doctor's sign off on it, or else I risk losing my crown (see link I posted earlier in this thread). If it was just me, I'd say screw my doctor - *I* am happier at 175. But since the newspaper articles and the speaking tours, others are looking at me as an example. The organization I am with has seen a very significant growth in membership since the newspaper articles. My individual chapter went from 15 people trying to get back into shape and doubled to 30 when we had to close membership because the room doesn't hold any more. Other chapters have seen similar growth. So it would be embarrassing to lose that crown. Though my physiotherapist thought it humourous that I could lose the crown by adding muscle mass.
I already posted that in the thread (page 3). I actually included that in my speaking presentation. It really is that simple. It works and is the ONLY true way to lose fat.
How is that going against science? Care to elaborate?
To start with ... the pH of your urine has little bearing or indication on the pH of your blood.
The actual foods eaten in an alkaline diet are all quite healthy. Whether your blood pH is slightly more alkaline or acidic than 'normal' is more an indication of your overal hormonal and metabolic status. The food you eat is only one part of this.
I definitely wouldn't consider it an 'unhealthy' diet. I just think their fear of 'acidic' foods like meat, eggs, cheeses is blown way out of proportion.
__________________
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Last edited by scotty2hotty; 04-15-2012 at 12:26 PM.
To start with ... the pH of your urine has little bearing or indication on the pH of your blood.
The actual foods eaten in an alkaline diet are all quite healthy. Whether your blood pH is slightly more alkaline or acidic than 'normal' is more an indication of your overal hormonal and metabolic status. The food you eat is only one part of this.
I definitely wouldn't consider it an 'unhealthy' diet. I just think their fear of 'acidic' foods like meat, eggs, cheeses is blown way out of proportion.
Good post. I agree that there is no need to eliminate acidifying foods, but keeping a balance between alkalizing and acidifying is the key. They say something like 75%-80% intake of food should be alkaline.
I tried this diet for a period of time. It was hard to keep up with, but I felt great and had more energy.
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And if I could do that and maintain 175, I would be more than happy with that. I just need to get my doctor's sign off on it, or else I risk losing my crown (see link I posted earlier in this thread). If it was just me, I'd say screw my doctor - *I* am happier at 175. But since the newspaper articles and the speaking tours, others are looking at me as an example.
[snip]
Though my physiotherapist thought it humourous that I could lose the crown by adding muscle mass.
My mistake, I just read since the bump. That is pretty silly, and I agree with you that getting a DEXA done for body fat % would be the most objective measure. Then, even if you gained 10 pounds of muscle, your % would stay the same (or decrease).
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
There are reports of 3% bf, but it depends on how the measurement is made. Also that bf is never maintained for more than a couple of days.
Hydrostatic weighing is most certainly not 100% accurate either. It depends on mathematical formula and density. Things like lung capacity, hydration, bone density, how much food is in your intestinal tract, etc... will all affect the measurements.
Agreed, very low body fat is not something you should maintain (ie < 5% for men).
And no, hydrostatic weighing isn't fool-proof, which is why DEXA is the new gold standard, but it is pretty good (ie they standardize no eating / drinking for a few hours prior, take lung capacity and bone density into the equations, etc).
Calipers and bioelectrical impedance and some of the other measures aren't very accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
If you are maintainign 6% that is extremely impressive. I'd be interested to see your diet/routine.
Not as impressive as you'd think. While yes, I eat healthy and exercise a lot (probably too much), I've had low body fat my whole life. I think that's where some discrepancy at the low end comes in - some people just have low values and that's normal for them.
If you were 6% but were at a huge caloric deficit to get there then you won't last very long. At some point it's going to destroy your energy levels too much to maintain it - hence why body builders "cut" before an event (which in my opinion is brutally unhealthy).
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Last edited by TheSutterDynasty; 04-15-2012 at 05:19 PM.
