A Song of Ice and Fire **Spoilers** Now more TV talk!

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Most of the ideas about Jon make sense - he might turn out like Coldhands (Benjen?) a white walker with memory of his former self or something along those lines.

One does not simply kill off Barristan Selmy. Old bugger has some serious skills.

I'm also curious to see what happens with the battle in the south, and how long the protector guy can last before becoming a stone skinned guy. And whether or not Winterfell can be retaken.

[Matata]

nmd, am dumb.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

As for Jon's parentage, I almost feel like Martin may skip the mystery of his mother altogether. She was just some woman and it wasn't Cat. I don't know if it has to have some crazy twist about her identity.

There's no fun in that!!!

I personally like the one that is Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

There's no fun in that!!!

I personally like the one that is Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Wouldn't you expect him to have that pure white hair then?

If Sean Bean could figure out that Gendry was Robert's illegitimate child just by looking at him, you'd think someone would pick up that Jon looks somewhat like Rhaegar did.

It does seem likely that Jon is Lyanna's child though, as the first book had Eddard promising something to Lyanna in a flashback. What that was hasn't been revealed yet.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Wouldn't you expect him to have that pure white hair then?

If Sean Bean could figure out that Gendry was Robert's illegitimate child just by looking at him, you'd think someone would pick up that Jon looks somewhat like Rhaegar did.

It does seem likely that Jon is Lyanna's child though, as the first book had Eddard promising something to Lyanna in a flashback. What that was hasn't been revealed yet.

yah - you're probably right about the white hair - it's the same theory behind why Robert is the father 'the seed is strong'

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

yah - you're probably right about the white hair - it's the same theory behind why Robert is the father 'the seed is strong'

But the white hair might not be as dominant a trait - I think the reason why it runs in Rhaegar's family is due to all the inbreeding; the Targaryens didn't generally marry outside the family.

[Tinordi]

Eitherway, what happened to Jon is pretty stupid. Martin has completely nullified the significance of death when it was so important in the beginning of the series.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but there haven't been enough fake deaths to worry me. There have been how many major characters killed? 5? 10?

And how many fake deaths? 4 or 5?

Furthermore, other than Cat pretty much all of the fake deaths have more been the way he writes. Several of the deaths have simply been him using ambiguous writing to throw us off when they aren't really dead.

If everyone that dies was coming back like Zombie Cat I'd be worried.

[Resolute 14]

In my mind there is a large difference between a fake death (Kat) and misinformation (Bran, Rickon). There haven't been too many of the former, though with the white walkers, the concept of being resurrected into basically a zombie has been established since page 1.

[Hanni]

Even with Arya, maybe it was just the way I read it, I thought she was dead. Taking an axe to the back of the head lead me to that assumption, then when it turned out to be the flat of the axe I felt screwed with. Like Martin wrote it that way so that you would think she's dead just to mess with the reader. Which is fine, but when you kill off major characters, and pretty much exclusively protagonists, and then throw in a couple fake deaths, it desensitizes the reader. I still really enjoy the books, but I have stopped caring about the characters to the point where when Jon got stabbed I thought big surprise, one of the few characters left I like is probably dead, or maybe not and I don't really care.

[Bobblehead]

What sort of "future book spoilers" exist? Are you talking the chapters that have already been released? Or are you referring to hints that GRRM has dropped in subsequent interviews or conventions?

I think any hints through unofficial sources (torrent leak, etc) should be put in spoiler tags but anything else should be fair game. Otherwise it is just too darn uncertain as to what should or shouldn't be seen in the clear.

So unofficial leaks - spoiler tags.
Hints/previews from GRRM or his publishers - fair game.

[Bigtime]

The real spoiler is that GRRM is fat and old and will probably die before he can finish the series, leaving all of us screwed.

[Ped]

In regards to the Jon issue, Ned didn't clue in because all of Robert's children had dark hair - he clued because every time a Baratheon and a Lannister married and produced children, they were black-haired - the gold yielded before the black.

And it's mentioned that Jon purely looks like a Stark.

As for the de-sensitive to deaths, I think it all depends on the wording.

Cat came back, but not Cat - just like the shell that was Beric Dondarrion was no longer really him; he mentioned he couldn't remember his betrothed or his castle or anything from before.

With Arya and the axe, I'm sure it was meant to be misdirection, but the chapter didn't say she was dead, only she was hit in the back of the head.

The Mountain - again, it's not really clear yet, but it seems pretty safe to say he's not the same he was before.

The Hound - the monk iirc said the Hound was dead, if the limping monk is Sandor Clegane than that is pretty accurate, the Hound was a persona Sandor threw on.

Bran and Rickon - again he never came out and wrote their deaths, he left it alluded to.

And for me they aren't less shocking. Kevan's death pissed me off to no end - for me he was a very important support character and I thought he would have a bigger role to play in future.

[Boblobla]

Lyanna was a Stark, so Jon could be her kid and still look like a Stark.

I just hope we don't get a zombie John, similar to how Cat is.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Ped

Kevan's death pissed me off to no end - for me he was a very important support character and I thought he would have a bigger role to play in future.

He was also one of the only Lannister's that seemed to be a nice guy, and look what it gets him. Killed because he would actually get the kingdom up and running properly again (gotta let Cersei run it into the ground eh Varys?).

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

He was also one of the only Lannister's that seemed to be a nice guy, and look what it gets him. Killed because he would actually get the kingdom up and running properly again (gotta let Cersei run it into the ground eh Varys?).

Well, it needs to be in shambles so a non-Lannister can be the one to unite it without any additional war.

And is anyone sure who Varys is backing? Is it Aegon, Dany or someone else?

That site Coys listed earlier has a crazy amount of info on it with pages and pages of theories.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

What sort of "future book spoilers" exist? Are you talking the chapters that have already been released? Or are you referring to hints that GRRM has dropped in subsequent interviews or conventions?

I think any hints through unofficial sources (torrent leak, etc) should be put in spoiler tags but anything else should be fair game. Otherwise it is just too darn uncertain as to what should or shouldn't be seen in the clear.

So unofficial leaks - spoiler tags.
Hints/previews from GRRM or his publishers - fair game.

I'm ok with this as long as any official stuff doesn't contain any major spoilers.

If Martin comes out and admits that Jon will return as a _______ it should be in spoiler tags.

On the other hand if he says "we may not have seen the last of Jon" I'm ok with it because that isn't groundbreaking.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I'm ok with this as long as any official stuff doesn't contain any major spoilers.

If Martin comes out and admits that Jon will return as a _______ it should be in spoiler tags.

On the other hand if he says "we may not have seen the last of Jon" I'm ok with it because that isn't groundbreaking.

From the Martin interviews I have read, it sounds like that is exactly how he does it. For example:

2) Will we get to see Valyria?
As it was before the Doom? As it is today?
Maybe.
3) Can you give us three unanswered questions that you expect will be answered in Winds?
I could, but I won't.
4) Is Bronn's storyline arc done? He was one of my favorite characters in the early books and in the T.V show but it seems like he came to a peak in A Feast for Crows and received no mention in A Dance with Dragons. Please keep Bronn going!
Bronn still has a part to play. He will definitely be back.

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I don't think you can say "major spoilers" because I doubt you will get any sort of consensus on the definition of a major spoiler. Someone may think it is fine, others may be angry.

[WhiteTiger]

As to Jon's parentage, that's cleared up in the very first book, I thought. Ned and Robert were talking about the 'good old days', Robert was talking about his wenching, and then says something along the lines of "And what about that peasant girl of yours? Jon's mother. What was her name?" IIRC, Robert guessed a few names, and Ned supplied the name and told Robert never to speak of her again.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

As to Jon's parentage, that's cleared up in the very first book, I thought. Ned and Robert were talking about the 'good old days', Robert was talking about his wenching, and then says something along the lines of "And what about that peasant girl of yours? Jon's mother. What was her name?" IIRC, Robert guessed a few names, and Ned supplied the name and told Robert never to speak of her again.

I believe it is talked about later too. The daughter of some lord that Ned killed or something. Could be lies though.