Travelling to North Korea

[Cheese]

An American friend was there a few months ago running a marathon...here are his excerpts. Good read for those that want more. Some parallels to Oil Stains thread.

https://medium.com/@vzrjvy/i-don-t-b...61c#.gje4gght7

https://medium.com/@vzrjvy/i-don-t-b...0ac#.4t5gp0mub

https://medium.com/@vzrjvy/i-dont-be...1e6#.29celed6p

[metallicat]

Good update, thanks very much. You mentioned though that life is going on in NK and that they don't seem to be staging things for the tourists, but it sounds to me that they're probably just very good at it. You saw the "life" and not the extreme poverty and hardship from normal citizens.

That said, cool experience.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Cheese

An American friend was there a few months ago running a marathon...here are his excerpts. Good read for those that want more. Some parallels to Oil Stains thread.

https://medium.com/@vzrjvy/i-don-t-b...61c#.gje4gght7

https://medium.com/@vzrjvy/i-don-t-b...0ac#.4t5gp0mub

https://medium.com/@vzrjvy/i-dont-be...1e6#.29celed6p

Interesting that both your friend and Oil Stain had tour guides who claimed to have been Otto Warmbier's tour guide and cast him in a bad light. I wonder if there are so few tours that that's not that unlikely, if it's a big coincidence, or if it's just part of the show.

Also, it seems like Oil Stain is buying a lot of what the North Koreans are selling. I genuinely wonder if he's been fooled by their propaganda or if I've been fooled by everyone else's.

Either way, I'm jealous of the experience. It looks like a fascinating trip.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Wow, great thread, and fascinating read. It's always interesting to read and hear about experiences people actually have when in North Korea, rather than through the biased lens of media. I don't doubt there's a lot of issues with North Korea, but I always wonder how much the media exaggerates it to make it look even harsher.

Frankly Oilstain saw what they want him to see, they didn't take him to any of the Northern areas where they have numerous gulags and man killing mines, or the forced education camps.

They can string as many powerlines to the country as they want but the views from satellite maps tell a completely different story.

They certainly didn't take them through the harder hit famine areas either.

They probably didn't take him through the numerous palaces built for the Kim family where as one of the former chefs for middle Kim talked about they had slave labor to sort the rice so that the leader would only get the most perfect grains and the rest were thrown out.

Or the schools where they teach young girls to smile and dance for 12 hours a day so someday that can pleasure the young leader and his hanger ons.

There's enough collaboration from people who have escaped for their lives at the risk of their lives, combined with satellite images and other things to know that North Korea is a show state for outsiders and everyone that's not part of the grand theatre is in horrible shape living in horrible conditions, and any money that comes from the outside world goes straight into the pockets of that malignant family and their cronies.

[Bill Bumface]

What are these, photos for ants!?

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by bax

Did anything shock you? Or did your research pretty much prepare you for everything? Is this a trip that you would recommend to others?

I was pretty shocked by the pretty much complete lack of paved roads outside of the cities and the DMZ highway. We stayed a night in Sinuiju. The Hotel was about an hour drive out of town on a gravel road.

The next morning when we were headed back into town, the government had mobilized people that I would estimate numbered in the thousands to fill potholes in the road with shovels. Pretty surreal to see.

I was surprised at how many "regular" North Koreans have been outside the country. I would have guessed roughly zero outside the ruling family and friends before my trip. However there were a lot of North Koreas on the train headed to and from China for business. We met some hanging in the hotels that had been to China as well. One of our guides had been to Singapore for 6 days for training. Still a very small number compared to the greater population, and they would be "elites" I suppose, but they would be what I would consider middle class people in Canada. Definitely not the ruling class.

There are small free market shops and stores. Very limited. Restricted to clothing and food items and such. Apparently the government tried to crack down on them which led to civil disobedience with citizens burning currency in the streets. They have allowed this limited free market as a result.

One of our guides was kind of a rebel. He was encouraging one of the guest to take pictures of military checkpoints. He answered questions more honestly than the guide that did most of the talking. It was kind of shocking to see a North Korean in a pretty high position in society that really didn't care about toeing the party line.

We visited a kindergarten to watch some 5-6 year olds perform. They were amazing! Before the show we got to drop in on a lesson. It was like a Sunday school setting except the topic of learning was about the leaders. It was pretty shocking to see the brainwashing in action on children that young.



I didn't research enough before I went, and North Korea is the type of place that leaves you with more questions then answers. If I had a do over, I would have done a lot more research so I could have asked some better questions that didn't occur to me until after I had left.

I would definitely recommend this trip to others. Probably 3-4 days to a week is enough though. The constant bombardment of propaganda about the leaders begins to wear on you in rather short order. Independent tour is the way to go by far! So much better and more freedom to explore the things you want to experience than being part of a tour.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

What are these, photos for ants!?

I fixed them.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Interesting that both your friend and Oil Stain had tour guides who claimed to have been Otto Warmbier's tour guide and cast him in a bad light. I wonder if there are so few tours that that's not that unlikely, if it's a big coincidence, or if it's just part of the show.

Also, it seems like Oil Stain is buying a lot of what the North Koreans are selling. I genuinely wonder if he's been fooled by their propaganda or if I've been fooled by everyone else's.

Either way, I'm jealous of the experience. It looks like a fascinating trip.

My guide was not Pyong. She was a Western guide that worked with Young Pioneers. We traveled with her and three Korean guides.

She didn't paint Otto in a bad light at all. She said he was a delight and one of her favorites on that tour. She said she was pretty shocked by what happened. The rumor of there being more to the story of Otto didn't come from her, and it may well have just been a rumor.

Having the same guide wouldn't be that big of a coincidence though. Sinuiju had 6 English speaking guides. Young Pioneers had 4-5 Western guides I believe. The main tourism bureau in Pyongyang KITS had maybe 60-70 guides total.

I definitely didn't buy what the North Koreans are selling, but at the same time, the country isn't exactly what the Western media portrays it as either.

[bax]

Awesome, sounds very interesting and I'm happy you made it home safe!

Thanks again for answering questions and providing updates!

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Frankly Oilstain saw what they want him to see, they didn't take him to any of the Northern areas where they have numerous gulags and man killing mines, or the forced education camps.

Of course not, but frankly if you were on a guided tour in Vancouver they wouldn't parade you down East Hastings Street either. They will try and show you the parts of the city that they are proud of.

We all know that North Korea is a totalitarian regime with what essentially amounts to a royal family using the country as their personal playground.

Its not all dismal living conditions for the entire country however. It's all relative of course, but in comparison to some other underdeveloped countries, life in Pyongyang may not be the worst existence. If you are comparing the living conditions in Cambodia, India, Yemen, Afghanistan or any other number of failed states to North Korea, then North Korea is the victor there.

In no way would I ever want to live in a place like North Korea with its lack of freedoms, but to say there are zero bright spots there is not accurate either.

The city itself is clean and orderly. The people are educated and take pride in themselves and what they do. The character of the people and culture has more in common with Japan/Taiwan/South Korea than they do with the Chinese or other Southeast Asian Nations. If North Korea were able to throw off the shackles of the Kim regime I would be very surprised if they didn't become a strong, successful state in short order.

[Johnny199r]

Great trip review. Very interesting.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Interesting that both your friend and Oil Stain had tour guides who claimed to have been Otto Warmbier's tour guide and cast him in a bad light. I wonder if there are so few tours that that's not that unlikely, if it's a big coincidence, or if it's just part of the show.

Also, it seems like Oil Stain is buying a lot of what the North Koreans are selling. I genuinely wonder if he's been fooled by their propaganda or if I've been fooled by everyone else's.

Either way, I'm jealous of the experience. It looks like a fascinating trip.

Like this piece from my friend:

The Korea International Travel Company, the North Korean organization responsible for tour logistics, deliberately stuffs the itinerary. Down time could be filled with critical thinking. The near-frenetic pace is exhausting. As with most trips, you don’t fully appreciate them until after you’ve left. North Korea is the same but worse. After more than two weeks of reflection I, like Danny, am still not sure what I saw. I’m 99% positive it was all a lie. I’d be 100% if I never went. But propaganda works.
Pyongyang is a movie. You start the trip as Truman Burbank and end it as Neo. Repeated wholesome coincidence gives way to skepticism and doubt. At some point, Saturday night for me, you take the red pill and wake up. First you see the glitches. Then you see the matrix.
The sidewalk scene on Friday at 17:00 is the same as Saturday 8:00 and later that night at 22:00. People are dressed the same, carrying the same brief cases, walking with the same I’m-late-for-my-meeting focus. What meeting? No one’s going into or coming out of the salons, grocery stores, and bowling alleys. The water park is empty on a Saturday. Not even a ripple in the wave pool. No one’s having date night. No one lives in the apartments. So who put the fresh flowers on the balconies? No North Koreans in the gift shops or the restaurants we visit..

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

My guide was not Pyong. She was a Western guide that worked with Young Pioneers. We traveled with her and three Korean guides.

She didn't paint Otto in a bad light at all. She said he was a delight and one of her favorites on that tour. She said she was pretty shocked by what happened. The rumor of there being more to the story of Otto didn't come from her, and it may well have just been a rumor.

Having the same guide wouldn't be that big of a coincidence though. Sinuiju had 6 English speaking guides. Young Pioneers had 4-5 Western guides I believe. The main tourism bureau in Pyongyang KITS had maybe 60-70 guides total.

I definitely didn't buy what the North Koreans are selling, but at the same time, the country isn't exactly what the Western media portrays it as either.

The bolded part is very interesting to me.

After travelling to several Arab countries, I always come back saying this exact same thing. I have Iranian-Canadian friends that also tell me that life there isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be here.

Very cool experience man.

[taco.vidal]

Originally Posted by Harju

It is worth repeating "You'll be fine if you just follow instruction and don't do anything stupid".
This fellow was a Young Pioneer tourist.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...al-banner.html

Young Pioneer is well regarded but caters to a younger group and seems to use partying and drinking in North Korea as a marketing tool. This guy was a frat boy from the U of Virginia so I think alcohol may have had a lot to do with his decision making.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN19A2TW

U.S. | Tue Jun 20, 2017 | 6:08am EDT
U.S. student held prisoner by North Korea dies days after release

By Steve Gorman
An American university student held prisoner in North Korea for 17 months died at a Cincinnati hospital on Monday, just days after he was released from captivity in a coma, his family said.

Otto Warmbier, 22, who was arrested in North Korea while visiting as a tourist, had been described by doctors caring for him last week as having extensive brain damage that left him in a state of "unresponsive wakefulness."

"Unfortunately, the awful torturous mistreatment our son received at the hands of the North Koreans ensured that no other outcome was possible beyond the sad one we experienced today," the family said in a statement after Warmbier's death at 2:20 p.m. EDT (1820 GMT).

His family has said that Warmbier lapsed into a coma in March 2016, shortly after he was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor in North Korea.

The student's father, Fred Warmbier, said last week that his son had been "brutalized and terrorized" by the Pyongyang government and that the family disbelieved North Korea's story that his son had fallen into a coma after contracting botulism and being given a sleeping pill.

Doctors who examined Otto Warmbier after his release said there was no sign of botulism in his system.

Warmbier was freed after the U.S. State Department's special envoy on North Korea, Joseph Yun, traveled to Pyongyang and demanded the student's release on humanitarian grounds, capping a flurry of secret diplomatic contacts, a U.S. official said last week.

[FurnaceFace]

For some reason I'm most curious about the convenience/grocery store pic. There is a lot going on in that pic. It looks like there was lots of contemplation on the Western's part on what you were looking at whereas the Korean guide looks like she's reading ingredients. Was the Korean guy in the middle of you a guide or the shop owner making sure you got what you were looking for? EDIT: oh and the guy on the corner of the left. Guide or agent?

[Peanut]

Everything is just so empty in so many of the photos. Very strange.

This description from Cheese's friend really matches the photos, in my opinion. Everything looks good but there's nothing actually there.

"The sidewalk scene on Friday at 17:00 is the same as Saturday 8:00 and later that night at 22:00. People are dressed the same, carrying the same brief cases, walking with the same I’m-late-for-my-meeting focus. What meeting? No one’s going into or coming out of the salons, grocery stores, and bowling alleys. The water park is empty on a Saturday. Not even a ripple in the wave pool. No one’s having date night. No one lives in the apartments. So who put the fresh flowers on the balconies? No North Koreans in the gift shops or the restaurants we visit.."

[FurnaceFace]

I read Elliott's blog site a while ago. It's quite well done and has a bunch of great photos. Seems to echo the experience others have had.

http://www.earthnutshell.com/category/north-korea/

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN19A2TW

That is a bizarre and scary story. I assume he was sent to one of those gulag style work camps?

I feel bad for his family.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Of course not, but frankly if you were on a guided tour in Vancouver they wouldn't parade you down East Hastings Street either. They will try and show you the parts of the city that they are proud of.

We all know that North Korea is a totalitarian regime with what essentially amounts to a royal family using the country as their personal playground.

Its not all dismal living conditions for the entire country however. It's all relative of course, but in comparison to some other underdeveloped countries, life in Pyongyang may not be the worst existence. If you are comparing the living conditions in Cambodia, India, Yemen, Afghanistan or any other number of failed states to North Korea, then North Korea is the victor there.

In no way would I ever want to live in a place like North Korea with its lack of freedoms, but to say there are zero bright spots there is not accurate either.

The city itself is clean and orderly. The people are educated and take pride in themselves and what they do. The character of the people and culture has more in common with Japan/Taiwan/South Korea than they do with the Chinese or other Southeast Asian Nations. If North Korea were able to throw off the shackles of the Kim regime I would be very surprised if they didn't become a strong, successful state in short order.

There are several pretty fascinating books about the North Korea show cities.

People are paid to walk from destination to destination or take the same bus over and over again to look busy and productive and happy.

Just like they take you to show schools where the kids take classes for hours at a time every day on how to smile and put on shows for foreigners.

They're fed a little bit more to give them a healthier look.

What tourists see are a facade. Even the rare eastern block diplomats are taken to show factories that don't really manufacture much of anything but they look busy. The stores are stocked, but if you go in day after day after day the store won't change.

They won't show you the real truth of people in the country basically eating grass or paying huge rates to buy food on the winked at black markets.

Those laborers that aren't working in man killing mines or on collective farms are basically sold to the Chinese and Russians for hard currency to go and work in those countries clear cutting forests or mining.

As far as that country being self reliant, North Korea got the short end of the stick in the split, its resource rich in terms of metals and ores but as far as being able to grow their own food to a self supportive level there's not enough truly usable farm land.

There's a reason why your tour guides are strict of where you go, its because the where you go is strictly controlled by the government. One person that worked in the show area, wrote in his book that at the end of every day of riding the bus back and forth was "debriefed" by an intelligence agent for hours at a time about his contact with the Westerners.

Look I get the curiosity and the thrill of visiting a country like North Korea, but all you did was buy a bunch of liquor and watches and food that only benefits the leader of that country and his hanger ons.