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Old 07-17-2017, 01:47 PM   #821
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Just $2 million better than Laine and Mathews? Come on, let's be realistic. I wouldn't take Laine and Mathews together for MCDavid straight up.

He's at least $5 million better than both those players.
Better lay off the crazy pills there
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:47 PM   #822
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I think the reason for the star salaries to star rising more quickly then before is due to elimination of super long term back diving contracts.

Crosby and Ovechkin set an artificially low cap benchmark by signing for 12 years each.

I think the fact that agents couldn't ask for more money than Crosby and Ovechkin for their clients, kept the high end of salaries beaten down for awhile.

Ovechkin signed his deal in 2008 and it took until 2014 for someone to move past him.

Now that "regular" elite guys have pushed past $10 million per season I think we will see a lot more of these contracts happening.
Very good points, but what we're also seeing is the squeeze on the middle.

Teams are going to be very top-heavy and filling in holes with whatever is cheap and that all goes back to the Draft.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:52 PM   #823
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What? Of course hes right, you just phrased it confrontationally. They dont want star players to paid more just to screw with the rest of the players.

Star players have to get paid like star players.

Its a Union, not a Kibbutz.

Each player is required to maximize their value (pay) from their employers. Thats going to help some and hurt others.

Its up to the others to know their place, which is a hilariously Capitalist scenario, all things considered.

And we're seeing it now with the lack of insane contracts being thrown out on July 1st. Other than Alzner and Shattenkirk (who, by the way, should have a picture on his jersey of Captain Kirk looking forlornly at a toilet as he flushes it) deals.

Should players take less for a chance to win? Maybe. If you can roll it into NTC/NMC or something else that provides mutual value. But overall? No.

McDavid left some cash on the table, but in fairness, not much.

And again, I must be thinking I'm insane on this because his ELC runs another year, so either the Edmonton Brass think hes going to have a monster year next year and wanted to lock him in now or they're nuts, but if they have that feeling then why doesnt McDavid's camp? Why arent they saying:

"Hes going to have a monster year next year lets wait until next year to lock him in!"

$100M. Thats why.
I understand that if Star players are paid more, the bottom 95 percent will be paid more as well. I just can't imagine how a contract like McDavids can be good for players or the league without the uncertainty of the cap going forward.

If the cap stagnates, as expected, the 95 percenters will be the ones losing money out of their pocket.

The "star players should be paid like McDavid" argument only really works in a non-cap world from a union standpoint. IMO at least.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:19 PM   #824
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I think the reason for the start salaries to star rising more quickly then before is due to elimination of super long term back diving contracts.
That's the thing that people seem to miss. Star salaries have been climbing constantly, it's just the cap hit that hasn't because of the back-diving deals.

Contracts like Weber's, Crosby's, Kane's, Toews', and even McDavid's and Price's new deals, all have seasons where they get paid the absolute maximum allowed (at the time of the signing) by the CBA for a single season. Price and McDavid both have two $15 million years on their deals.

McDavid's deal is so high because his is the first deal signed under the rules of the 2013 CBA where there is really no way to justify any reduced-salary years because the player is already at an elite level and shouldn't see any years of decline during the term of the contract.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:34 PM   #825
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I understand that if Star players are paid more, the bottom 95 percent will be paid more as well. I just can't imagine how a contract like McDavids can be good for players or the league without the uncertainty of the cap going forward.

If the cap stagnates, as expected, the 95 percenters will be the ones losing money out of their pocket.

The "star players should be paid like McDavid" argument only really works in a non-cap world from a union standpoint. IMO at least.
First of all, you're correct, as Maximum Wage increases as does Minimum Wage.

Its the guys in the middle that are going to get screwed.

In the very near future you're going to see a well-paid top line, a meagerly-paid middle line and goaltender and then holes filled with ELCs.
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:03 PM   #826
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Very good points, but what we're also seeing is the squeeze on the middle.

Teams are going to be very top-heavy and filling in holes with whatever is cheap and that all goes back to the Draft.
Yeah it has to come from somewhere. I think a lot of the middle tier guys are overpaid anyway so I'm fine with it.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:55 PM   #827
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First of all, you're correct, as Maximum Wage increases as does Minimum Wage.

Its the guys in the middle that are going to get screwed.

In the very near future you're going to see a well-paid top line, a meagerly-paid middle line and goaltender and then holes filled with ELCs.
Who cares. Shrink the hell out of the middle class of pro athletes. Stars should make star money. You don't get in trouble paying star players what they're worth, you get screwed by the Troy Brouwers of the world making $4.5M.

The actual middle class shrinking like it's in the drier. Anyone who doesn't like being a member of the 'screwed' middle class of the National Hockey League can see if Russia is right for them.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:34 PM   #828
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Who cares. Shrink the hell out of the middle class of pro athletes. Stars should make star money. You don't get in trouble paying star players what they're worth, you get screwed by the Troy Brouwers of the world making $4.5M.

The actual middle class shrinking like it's in the drier. Anyone who doesn't like being a member of the 'screwed' middle class of the National Hockey League can see if Russia is right for them.
IMO right now, a strong salary structure would start with something like (brackets are just some examples of fair value):

#1C - 7.5M (~Kuznetsov)
#1D - 7.0M (~Subban)
#1W - 7.0M (~Wheeler)
#2W - 6.0M (~Okposo)
#2C - 5.75M (~Backlund)
#2D - 5.75M (~Ekholm)
#1G - 5.75M (~Crawford)
#3W - 5.75M (~Saad)
#3D - 5.0M (~Gudas)
#3C - 4.25M (~Couturier)
#4D - 4.0M (~Martinez)
#4W - 3.75M (~Cogliano)
#4C - 1.5M (~Letestu)

So that would be in terms of holes in the lineup:

Saad-Kuznetsov-Wheeler
X-Backlund-Okposo
Cogliano-Couturier-X
X-Letestu-X
X
X

Ekholm-Subban
Martinez-Gudas
x-X
X

Crawford
X

Obviously, it still needs to be adjusted to the actual individuals on a roster, but the above represents about 95% of the cap ceiling into the top 61% of your roster. You have serious depth issues if you can't fill out the rest with ELCs, cheap bridge contracts, and buy-low vets.

McDavid, for what it's worth, is easily worth the cost of a Kuznetsov+Cogliano+14th Forward. That's ultimately what it comes down to. So basically you would have to trim the above forward roster to:

X-McDavid-Wheeler
X-Backlund-Okposo
Saad-Couturier-X
X-Letestu-X
X

You only run into problems when you pay the 'X' guys what they aren't worth.

The other factor is that six or seven or eight or nine years from now, the cap will rise, but McDavid's cap hit may no longer be the largest. So you'll be able to either add that Cogliano back into the mix or account for the inflation of the values of the Backlunds or Okposos.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:56 PM   #829
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If it were only this easy to get the star players you want and hope that someone doesn't do great in a contract year and demand a big raise then not live up to it...
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:30 PM   #830
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Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814 View Post
Who cares. Shrink the hell out of the middle class of pro athletes. Stars should make star money. You don't get in trouble paying star players what they're worth, you get screwed by the Troy Brouwers of the world making $4.5M.

The actual middle class shrinking like it's in the drier. Anyone who doesn't like being a member of the 'screwed' middle class of the National Hockey League can see if Russia is right for them.
I wonder if this will change when it comes to the CBA. The middle class has a lot more votes than the stars do. If they want, they could change the structure so the money is more evenly distributed.
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:19 AM   #831
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I wonder if this will change when it comes to the CBA. The middle class has a lot more votes than the stars do. If they want, they could change the structure so the money is more evenly distributed.
How could they do that? I think the only way this happens is if they negotiate for a smaller percentage of the cap in maximum salary, which is a non-starter for the NHLPA.

I actually think the end game for the players is to create such a cumbersome situation between the salary cap and player salaries by eliminating the middle class in order to pressure owners to abandon the cap altogether.
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:53 AM   #832
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It's a Union, not a Kibbutz.
You need to TM this. Such a great line. I want partial credit for the grammar fix. ;-)
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