BC Lags Behind Other Provinces in Life Satisfaction

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I personally know people who have been arrested for simple possession. It may not have been enforced on a wide scale, but it didn't completely disappear.

For all intents and purposes it disappeared. The people you know were likely committing other offences or being a general nuisance and the arrest was made to move them along. Did they get formally charged? The argument that decrim is something revolutionary is a straw man.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is really difficult to do, as it depends on what the Criminal Code and the SCC have to say about it.



Again, it's not a bad idea in theory, but doesn't really work logistically. It relies on the idea that addicts know who they're buying their drugs from. You'd also have to implement punishments for those who don't cooperate, which just ends up with putting users in jail again.

I know the tools aren't there. It would take a huge shift in the justice system and law enforcement that wouldn't happen quickly.

I just find it really dumb that police can find evidence that a crime took place (trafficking, manufacturing, or importing drugs), but can't or don't collect the evidence and investigate the larger crime. It would be like saying, possession of stolen objects is not a crime, but not following up with the person in possession of the stolen objects to find out how they got them. If such a law were to be implemented, I have no doubt that theft would increase because it would put a barrier preventing law enforcement from investigating.

I know it's a pipedream, but I would like to see measures in place for accessible clean drugs and anybody caught illegally trafficking be given the Ross Ulbricht treatment.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

For all intents and purposes it disappeared. The people you know were likely committing other offences or being a general nuisance and the arrest was made to move them along. Did they get formally charged?

Certainly possible. They were #######s.

The argument that decrim is something revolutionary is a straw man.

Where did I claim that decrim was revolutionary? You arguing that I did is ironically a better example of a strawman.

If you want to argue that decrim was de facto before it became de jure, that's fine. It's not a strawman to say that decrim wasn't officially law until two years ago.

Also, during various engagement with First Nations, they have basically said that decrim is still not being applied properly in some regions of the province, and they're still facing harassment (usually from RCMP) for personal possession.

That's largely anecdotal, but it's not just one or two who have said this, and I don't think it's out of the realm of believability considering the RCMP's history with indigenous peoples.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Certainly possible. They were #######s.



Where did I claim that decrim was revolutionary? You arguing that I did is ironically a better example of a strawman.

If you want to argue that decrim was de facto before it became de jure, that's fine. It's not a strawman to say that decrim wasn't officially law until two years ago.

Also, during various engagement with First Nations, they have basically said that decrim is still not being applied properly in some regions of the province, and they're still facing harassment (usually from RCMP) for personal possession.

That's largely anecdotal, but it's not just one or two who have said this, and I don't think it's out of the realm of believability considering the RCMP's history with indigenous peoples.

I'm increasingly convinced the pony boys see Paul Barts Mall Cop as a training video

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

For all intents and purposes it disappeared. The people you know were likely committing other offences or being a general nuisance and the arrest was made to move them along. Did they get formally charged? The argument that decrim is something revolutionary is a straw man.

This isn't true. I shared an office with a criminal lawyer. from 2017-2022ish. A large part of his business was helping guys in their 20s who'd been caught with a bag of cocaine and charged.

A problem with the semi-decriminalization, of the last 20 or so years, was that it was so arbitrary when the police chose to enforce it. Giving police discretionary decision making on when to or not to enforce a law is generally a bad idea.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Behind a paywall. Do you have access to the full article?

Oops, sorry. Will try to find a better link.
But I believe Adrian Dix announced they'll be creating safe use zones within the hospitals.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Behind a paywall. Do you have access to the full article?

Here:

Originally Posted by GLOBE & MAIL

BRITISH COLUMBIA
B.C. to require hospitals have designated spaces for patient illicit drug use, health minister says

British Columbia will require all of its hospitals to provide a designated space for patients with substance-use disorders to consume illicit drugs, prompted by concerns that an increase in such activity in prohibited hospital areas was putting health care workers at risk.

Health Minister Adrian Dix announced this week that the province would create a task force to standardize rules and create “active supports” to help patients manage their addictions while in care.

Some hospitals already provide designated-use spaces where staff monitor for overdoses. The Globe and Mail asked Mr. Dix Thursday whether every hospital in B.C. would be required to follow suit. “That is the purpose of the effort – not just to standardize rules,” he said.

Mr. Dix said that on any given day, hundreds of people with severe addiction issues use B.C. health care facilities. “The idea that people who are severely addicted and, say, are involved in some incident which leaves them injured and requires admission to a hospital, are going to take that moment to simply not deal with their addictions is just not correct,” he said.

“Our doctors and our nurses, and allied health science professionals, they deal with this every day. And our task is to support them.”
Gary Mason: B.C.’s drug decriminalization project suffers another blow

The move is the latest in a province whose approach to substance use has made it an outlier in the country. B.C. is the only jurisdiction in Canada to decriminalize possession of small amounts of illicit substances, and take a provincial approach to prescribing alternatives to illicit drugs, an intervention limited to small programs and pilot projects elsewhere.

B.C. nurses have been speaking out about safety concerns related to patient drug use. BC Nurses’ Union president Adriane Gear said that while there has always been some degree of illicit drug use in care spaces, it appears to have increased since B.C.’s drug decriminalization pilot began early last year.

Ms. Gear said members’ concerns have come primarily from the north, on Vancouver Island, and in the Interior, citing as examples nurses in Victoria reporting substance use in the perinatal unit, and a nurse in the Interior reporting being exposed to substance use twice in one week.

WorkSafeBC reports have detailed concerns over drug use in patient rooms and washrooms, drug paraphernalia visible in rooms and exposure to illicit substances by inhalation.

The requirement for designated spaces could be met with resistance in some municipalities.

While Vancouver’s St. Paul’s Hospital has offered overdose prevention services on site for years, some cities have rejected them altogether.

In suburban Richmond, an effort by city council earlier this year to explore the possibility of a public supervised consumption site at the local hospital was met with raucous protest by residents before the health authority concluded that such a site isn’t needed there.

In Quesnel, where the local hospital does not have a designated space for substance use, an internal memo advising staff not to confiscate illicit substances or restrict visitors who may be dropping off drugs touched off days of heated debate in the B.C. legislature.

The task force announced by Mr. Dix, which comprises representatives from public health, each B.C. health authority and the Ministry of Health, was scheduled to have its first meeting this week. The Globe sought comment from every health authority but received no response on Thursday.

According to the Health Minister, the task force has been directed to standardize relevant policies and procedures across all health authorities and ensure consistent practices are in place in all hospitals. It will also seek to ensure “the use of drugs is specific to designated spaces within or around the facility or under specific direction of the care team of where and when unregulated drugs can be used.”

In addition, it has the task of improving training and education for staff, strengthening screening and risk assessment and ensuring “active security interventions” are taking place.

Elenore Sturko, BC United’s mental health and addictions critic, said she supports providing such patients with prescribed alternatives – such as fentanyl or hydromorphone – to use under the supervision of health care staff while in hospital.

However, she’s opposed to patients using any illicit substances on hospital grounds, citing potential behavioural issues and safety concerns arising from stimulant-induced psychosis, for example. She is also skeptical that a designated space, such as an outdoor smoking area, could be protected from predatory drug dealers.

“Of course, we don’t want people going into withdrawals and making them leave the hospital because they’re in so much pain that they can’t receive their treatment,” she said. “But there are ways of managing those symptoms of their addiction without being excessively permissive.”

Tracey Day, clinical director of substance-use and addiction services at Carrier Sekani Family Services in Prince George, said people with substance-use disorders often cannot access addiction medicine such as methadone or Suboxone, or a prescribed alternative, when admitted to hospital. As a result, many people choose not to go, despite medical need.

“They deteriorate in the community until they either overdose and die, or they become so critically ill that they end up going to hospital, where they’re unable to leave on their own accord, and then they’re in that intolerable withdrawal,” she said.

Correne Antrobus, a Victoria-based member of the advocacy group Moms Stop The Harm who regularly accompanies people who use drugs to the hospital, said those who are there without supports will often “stumble outside and use,” or leave.

“They’re so sick, and they need help, but they won’t stay because of the draw to use their drugs,” she said. “That’s what I think people don’t understand about addiction. It’s so insidious. I’m 100 per cent behind this; we need to treat this as the health crisis it is.”

The Decibel: A year of drug decriminalization in B.C.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by you&me

Here:

We already have designated smoking areas for tobacco and weed, so I don't see this as huge step from there. It's also obviously an improvement from people smoking in the hospitals and is better than people going through/dying from withdrawal if they're in the hospital.

However, I think there needs to be some pretty strict guidelines.

- Security needs to be present and adequately staffed.
- Penalties for using in non-designated areas need to be severe and consistently enforced.
- Severe penalties for anyone leaving needles or other paraphernalia laying around.
- Severe penalties for anyone caught dealing on hospital grounds.

The province should also probably install metal detectors in all hospitals. This isn't necessarily related to decrim. I think it's just a good idea overall to increase safety for health care workers. It's not just addicts who assault nurses and hospital staff. There are the COVID crazies, people who are mentally unwell, etc.

In an ideal world, I would also probably require visitors to show ID, but not sure that would survive a Charter or HRT challenge.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I'm increasingly convinced the pony boys see Paul Barts Mall Cop as a training video

If you cant run someone down on a Segway then do we truly live in a 'free' society?

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This isn't necessarily related to decrim.

You keep saying that in the face of multiple news reports indicating otherwise.

Originally Posted by rubecube

If BC United is involved, you can be almost certain that it's exaggerated or fabricated.

You said that the multiple news reports (CBC, National Post, etc.) about drug use in hospitals and the memo telling nurses to allow usage and weapons sent out by BC health region were lies in the media. That there was no memo because you didn't see yourself. You were wrong - which is fine, we all are a lot of time.

And very first part of the official memo points specifically to decriminalization as to the reason for the change in direction for nurses to allow weapons and drug possession and illicit drug use in hospitals.

Originally Posted by rubecube

I probably shouldn't #### on Northern HA too much. They have one of the hardest regions to run, and it's very hard for them to get qualified staff due to how remote they are.

Then you dismiss the news as being just a tiny ####ty part of the province and that it's not a widespread issue at hospitals across the province.

Then further news reports of first hand accounts from nurses across the province of the state of affairs regarding illicit drugs and drug use at BC hospitals. Nurses and their union explicitly indicate that the issue has gotten progressively worse since decriminalization. It would only be logical.

In fact, the news is so bad that the BC government has now had form a task force this week to now decide to formally allow illicit drug use in every BC hospital. Again, the nurses union themselves indicate that drug usage in hospitals has only increased since decriminalization.

I understand and commend the empathy for addiction sufferers. But don't you think you're being chronically stubborn/blind to some of the results of decriminalization and normalization of drug usage here?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by rubecube

We already have designated smoking areas for tobacco and weed, so I don't see this as huge step from there. It's also obviously an improvement from people smoking in the hospitals and is better than people going through/dying from withdrawal if they're in the hospital.

However, I think there needs to be some pretty strict guidelines.

- Security needs to be present and adequately staffed.
- Penalties for using in non-designated areas need to be severe and consistently enforced.
- Severe penalties for anyone leaving needles or other paraphernalia laying around.
- Severe penalties for anyone caught dealing on hospital grounds.

The province should also probably install metal detectors in all hospitals. This isn't necessarily related to decrim. I think it's just a good idea overall to increase safety for health care workers. It's not just addicts who assault nurses and hospital staff. There are the COVID crazies, people who are mentally unwell, etc.

In an ideal world, I would also probably require visitors to show ID, but not sure that would survive a Charter or HRT challenge.

Its not a big step from having areas for smoking to having areas for heroin, crack, or meth? Really? Once this idiotic policy gets implemented do you think these sections of the hospital are just going to be neat, tidy peaceful zones with nice elevator music playing and people reading magazines as they wait for their stall to use their drug of choice?

Also, where are the designated areas for smoking and weed? You mean like outside? Smoking seems to have been virtually eliminated from all public spaces, and rightfully so.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by chemgear

You keep saying that in the face of multiple news reports indicating otherwise.

You said that the multiple news reports (CBC, National Post, etc.) about drug use in hospitals and the memo telling nurses to allow usage and weapons sent out by BC health region were lies in the media. That there was no memo because you didn't see yourself.

That's not what I said. I said I couldn't see the memo. Someone showed it to me and I said it was an HA memo and there was no evidence the directive came from the government or any particular ministry. Was I wrong about that?

You were wrong - which is fine, we all are a lot of time.

You haven't walked back your diversion stuff. Just saying.

And very first part of the official memo points specifically to decriminalization as to the reason for the change in direction for nurses to allow weapons and drug possession and illicit drug use in hospitals.

Yes, the HA memo said that. There (afaik) is still no evidence that that directive came from the government.

Then you dismiss the news as being just a tiny ####ty part of the province and that it's not a widespread issue at hospitals across the province.

Because it was before the additional reports came out. I'm willing to acknowledge that I didn't know how widespread it was until more reports came out.

Then further news reports of first hand accounts from nurses across the province of the state of affairs regarding illicit drugs and drug use at BC hospitals. Nurses and their union explicitly indicate that the issue has gotten progressively worse since decriminalization. It would only be logical.

That's actually a logical fallacy (correlation doesn't equal causation), so no it isn't logical.

In fact, the news is so bad that the BC government has now had form a task force this week to now decide to formally allow illicit drug use in every BC hospital.

Isn't that a good thing? The government realized there was a problem and then pivoted to a new policy.

I understand and commend the empathy for addiction sufferers. But don't you think you're being chronically stubborn/blind to some of the results of decriminalization and normalization of drug usage here?

I have consistently said that decrim and safe supply are imperfect programs, and there are ways they can be improved.

Ultimately, my concern is people dying and how to reduce that under the current reality and, so far, no one in this thread has proposed anything that realistically or theoretically offer better outcomes than these pilot programs.

If someone has those suggestions, I'm all ears.

[FlamesAddiction]

The Tsilhqot'in First Nation has declared a state of emergency because of a recent rash of deaths from toxic drugs and have called on the RCMP to enforce the law regarding dealers. It's sad that they even have to ask.

https://www.tsilhqotin.ca/wp-content...ment%20support.

[OldDutch]

My brother died from Meth. Its an awful drug. The stuff he would do and his mind state was like an animal morso the college grad he was.

Honestly we were caught in a bind at the end from allowing him to keep using vs. drawing a line in my parents house. We drew the line. It just wasn’t safe. Was it the right call? Eff who knows, my super bright brother became something else despite lots of treatment.

I tell you that because nurses, especially after COVID should not have to deal with a person like that. We need to respect a person doing a job more than a moron who made a choice to do a drug like meth.

I am disappointed when these Liberal theory people infect government and apply book science without any personal experience.

Live with a sibling on hard drugs for a year and come back and tell me front line staff should deal with them. Honestly lets see if any do.

[PepsiFree]

Front line staff, whether nurses, police officers, social workers, or whomever, have more first-hand experience with the entire spectrum of addiction than any one individual.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

My brother died from Meth. Its an awful drug. The stuff he would do and his mind state was like an animal morso the college grad he was.

Honestly we were caught in a bind at the end from allowing him to keep using vs. drawing a line in my parents house. We drew the line. It just wasn’t safe. Was it the right call? Eff who knows, my super bright brother became something else despite lots of treatment.

I tell you that because nurses, especially after COVID should not have to deal with a person like that. We need to respect a person doing a job more than a moron who made a choice to do a drug like meth.

I am disappointed when these Liberal theory people infect government and apply book science without any personal experience.

Live with a sibling on hard drugs for a year and come back and tell me front line staff should deal with them. Honestly lets see if any do.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

We already have designated smoking areas for tobacco and weed, so I don't see this as huge step from there. It's also obviously an improvement from people smoking in the hospitals and is better than people going through/dying from withdrawal if they're in the hospital.

However, I think there needs to be some pretty strict guidelines.

- Security needs to be present and adequately staffed.
- Penalties for using in non-designated areas need to be severe and consistently enforced.
- Severe penalties for anyone leaving needles or other paraphernalia laying around.
- Severe penalties for anyone caught dealing on hospital grounds.

The province should also probably install metal detectors in all hospitals. This isn't necessarily related to decrim. I think it's just a good idea overall to increase safety for health care workers. It's not just addicts who assault nurses and hospital staff. There are the COVID crazies, people who are mentally unwell, etc.

In an ideal world, I would also probably require visitors to show ID, but not sure that would survive a Charter or HRT challenge.

Not sure what the rules are in BC but Alberta does not allow smoking, vaping, or cannabis use on AHS property, full stop. There are no designated areas.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Live with a sibling on hard drugs for a year and come back and tell me front line staff should deal with them. Honestly lets see if any do.

I texted my brother and told him he was going to need to start doing meth and that I would have to live with him. He was taken aback, but when I told him it was to see if front line staff should have to deal with him after I've lived with him for a year, he was in. I will report back to you on April 16, 2025.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You haven't walked back your diversion stuff. Just saying.

My diversion stuff?

Ah, you mean the RCMP publicly saying in the news that there was "an alarming trend" involving organized criminals redistributing drugs intended for the safe supply program. Then the additional language later that it wasn't technically "widespread" and that safe supply diversion prescriptions were found in a "minority" of drug seizures. I'm surprised they didn't give more clarity what exactly that meant.

Again, while I disagree with your take I think your empathy is commendable. I feel like I'm just part of a growing population that is alarmed at the increasing hazards like having illicit drug use in hospitals & playgrounds, the increasing disorder and crime that is spinning out as a result of these policies. Certainly some compassion fatigue.

[dammage79]

I'll say this about downtown Victoria. It's not just Pandora corridor any longer. Since COVID and the purchase of the Nanaimo street motels, the Tally Ho on Douglas and the hotels near Discovery/Queens has branched the violent crimes fiercely. And IMO has spread law enforcement and first response too thin.

This week it feels like the wild west from uptown to downtown. Timespan may be off a smidge but 2 fatal stabbings in 3 days span is a new thing. Another potentially fatal one this afternoon on Douglas /Yates.

The warm weather is arriving and the children are going mad.

I don't know what the solution is to safe drug supply, safe use/spaces but I don't think any of the answers they have are the right one at this point.

It's kinda wild how things are getting out of hand.