Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by valo403

The fact that there is a Tampa suburb called "Town N' Country" is the most Florida thing I have ever heard.

Meet you at the Town N Country International House of Pancakes.

[Tinordi]

That Macleans article is terrifying. And we have buffoons in this thread vocally appealing for wanting to live in that kind of system.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

That Macleans article is terrifying. And we have buffoons in this thread vocally appealing for wanting to live in that kind of system.

and that makes the NRA smile.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The article also joins a very long list of people who continue to incorrectly believe this had anything to do with Stand Your Ground. For the 9 millionth time, this was not, and was never, a Stand Your Ground case. Straight self-defense, period.

[Tinordi]

Sure, and I never said it was stand your ground. It's idiots and the fearful running around with guns emboldened by vigilante justifying legislation.

[Rathji]

I really don't think there is anyway you can claim self defense in Florida without touching on various parts of the Stand Your Ground law. Wasn't that the part the jurors had to ask for clarification on twice?

I am not a lawyer (or a judge) though, so I might be out to lunch.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Sure, and I never said it was stand your ground. It's idiots and the fearful running around with guns emboldened by vigilante justifying legislation.

But how are you going to stop that? Fundamentally changing American cultural identity isn't going to happen anytime soon. Violence, fear and gun ownership are far too deeply ingrained into America that it will take generations before change happens.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

The article also joins a very long list of people who continue to incorrectly believe this had anything to do with Stand Your Ground. For the 9 millionth time, this was not, and was never, a Stand Your Ground case. Straight self-defense, period.

Yes and no, it was included in the instructions given to the jury, although not explicitly utilized by the defense.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But how are you going to stop that? Fundamentally changing American cultural identity isn't going to happen anytime soon. Violence, fear and gun ownership are far too deeply ingrained into America that it will take generations before change happens.

So you agree its a problem, and that change needs to happen.

Okay, so why present a nihilistic argument then?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But how are you going to stop that? Fundamentally changing American cultural identity isn't going to happen anytime soon. Violence, fear and gun ownership are far too deeply ingrained into America that it will take generations before change happens.

Well since studies show increased homicides in stand your ground states a good place to start would be repealing such laws.

http://blogs.lawyers.com/2013/01/sta...ore-homicides/

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

The article also joins a very long list of people who continue to incorrectly believe this had anything to do with Stand Your Ground. For the 9 millionth time, this was not, and was never, a Stand Your Ground case. Straight self-defense, period.

what is the difference between syg and straight self-defense?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

So you agree its a problem, and that change needs to happen.

Okay, so why present a nihilistic argument then?

Because change isn't coming to gun laws. Never. I wanna believe it'll happen, but if 20 dead school kids under the age of 8 won't result in change, its never happening. Sad, but true. One dead black teenage amongst thousands will also not result in change.You cannot change Americans desire to be packing heat. Because after all if everyone else is packing, you're at a disadvanatge if you're not. And yes thats sad, but thats the American mentality. Be glad we don't live there and have to deal with it.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

what is the difference between syg and straight self-defense?

Self defense means you must take all evasive action possible before using deadly force. SYG basically lets you decide when you feel endangered and then you can bust a cap in whomever you'd like.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

Well since studies show increased homicides in stand your ground states a good place to start would be repealing such laws.

http://blogs.lawyers.com/2013/01/sta...ore-homicides/

You can actually look up the murder rate by state very easily:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murd...-state#MRalpha

That study is pretty ridiculous. You don't need 20 pages of calculations to prove a correlation like this. You'll find that murder rates in the USA are linked to two factors:

1) Proximity to the Mexican border and the drug war coming from there; and
2) Percentage of the population that has been ghettoized.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

what is the difference between syg and straight self-defense?

Self defence is more frequently defined as use of force when no other options are available. The true definition really isn't consistent between areas or nations. For example, in Florida, self defence is called when you either are a target for murder or you or your property are the target of a felony. In Canada, self defence also has the definition that force not exceeding what is necessary must be used. If memory serves, there was a story a while ago about a gun collector who had guys on his property with Molotov cocktails. He shot his pistol at them a few times (not hitting anyone), and was charged, then acquitted, of illegal use of a firearm under self defence laws.

Stand your ground laws effectively mean you don't need to run away from a situation and are given legal right to use force not exceeding what is necessary instead of running away (much like Canadian self defence laws in terms of reasonable force).

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

You can actually look up the murder rate by state very easily:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murd...-state#MRalpha

That study is pretty ridiculous. You don't need 20 pages of calculations to prove a correlation like this. You'll find that murder rates in the USA are linked to two factors:

1) Proximity to the Mexican border and the drug war coming from there; and
2) Percentage of the population that has been ghettoized.

Umm, it's not based simply on the murder rates, but on the relative increases in murder rates in states with SYG laws and states without SYG laws.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by kirant

Self defence is more frequently defined as use of force when no other options are available. The true definition really isn't consistent between areas or nations. For example, in Florida, self defence is called when you either are a target for murder or you or your property are the target of a felony. In Canada, self defence also has the definition that force not exceeding what is necessary must be used. If memory serves, there was a story a while ago about a gun collector who had guys on his property with Molotov cocktails. He shot his pistol at them a few times (not hitting anyone), and was charged, then acquitted, of illegal use of a firearm under self defence laws.

Stand your ground laws effectively mean you don't need to run away from a situation and are given legal right to use force not exceeding what is necessary instead of running away (much like Canadian self defence laws in terms of reasonable force).

Not exactly.

The main difference is that STY is an immunity, while "self-defence" is a defence.

An immunity, means that charges are dropped and there is no trial. A defence means you actually have to prove your case in court.

When using STY you have no obligation to retreat. Usually in self-defence cases you have an obligation to make a reasonable effort to retreat.

As far as the difference between self-defence in Canada and Florida, they are a lot more similar than you are making them out to be. Both involve a reasonable belief that your life is at risk or you are at risk of great bodily harm. Both are common law jurisdictions, so what is "Reasonable", what conts as "great" enough bodily harm, etc... will largely be dependent on previous legal precedents in each jurisdiction.

Generally in Canada, it's less easy to be convicted of a crime (as we place a higher emphasis on human rights in our court system) and sentences are more lenient. The idea that the Canadian court systems would have been harsher on Zimmerman is baseless.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

Umm, it's not based simply on the murder rates, but on the relative increases in murder rates in states with SYG laws and states without SYG laws.

That's an issue of cause and effect. Most states enact STY laws due to a pattern of increasing murder rates. Correlation does not equal effect.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by blankall

As far as the difference between self-defence in Canada and Florida, they are a lot more similar than you are making them out to be. Both involve a reasonable belief that your life is at risk or you are at risk of great bodily harm. Both are common law jurisdictions, so what is "Reasonable", what conts as "great" enough bodily harm, etc... will largely be dependent on previous legal precedents in each jurisdiction.

Agreed. I was just spitting out what the differences, as I could find in research, were. I wasn't trying to define exactly how "reasonable" was qualified, just that there's an additional qualifier that exists in Canadian law.

I'd agree too that it's probably harder to prosecute under Canadian law.

Originally Posted by blankall

The idea that the Canadian court systems would have been harsher on Zimmerman is baseless.

I don't think I claimed this...did I?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

That's an issue of cause and effect. Most states enact STY laws due to a pattern of increasing murder rates. Correlation does not equal effect.

You have support for that? Very few states have a pattern of increasing murder rates. In fact, based on a quick review of your own chart there doesn't appear to be a single state that has seen a significant increase in murder rates over the last 5 years recorded.

The fact of the matter is that SYG laws allow for increased use of deadly force and decreased judicial review of that use. This is a positive how?