Airbus A320 Plane crashes in the Alps

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

But if you are smart enough, and skilled enough and made it far enough along to pilot a commercial airliner, there has to a voice of reason in your head that tells you not to do something like this, and ignoring it makes your a murderous SOB.

I don't really have a problem with people being pissed off at this guy despite his mental illness, but this part of your post is complete nonsense. Anyone can develop a mental illness at any time and the severity can fluxuate between instances, so it's very easily conceivable that he could've passed flight school, etc., and still been mentally sick. Hell, I was getting better grades in university when I was going untreated for my mental illness than I am now that I'm being treated, doesn't mean my personal life wasn't a complete mess. It's kind of a weird phenomenon. You can go through day to day life excelling at all of the things you're supposed to do and then just collapse into a pit of despair when you get home or when you wake up in the morning.

[Boblobla]

Reports: Desperate pilot used ax on locked cockpit door of doomed plane

Must have been absolutely horrific to be on the plane.

[CliffFletcher]

Just because people are looking at mentall illness as an explanation for this guy's behaviour doesn't mean they're defending him. Setting emotions aside, understanding cause and effect is useful.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just because people are looking at mentall illness as an explanation for this guy's behaviour doesn't mean they're defending him. Setting emotions aside, understanding cause and effect is useful.

exactly.

[Senor Rinkrat]

I have zero empathy or sympathy for this self-absorbed disgusting jerk. His alleged doctors should have dragged this ####### thru the nearest childrens hospital,then perhaps he might have realized his depressive problems didn,t account to much.Too bad we didn,t have inter -airline crewing last year.He could have been First Officer with Capt.Zaharie on MH 370 .A matched pair attaining their singular history.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just because people are looking at mental illness as an explanation for this guy's behaviour doesn't mean they're defending him. Setting emotions aside, understanding cause and effect is useful.

While I am glad that mental illness is having increased awareness, it seems that every time someone does something that is messed up it is the first place people go. It should not be the case that is someone does something so heinous that we cannot fathom it that the assumption is always mental illness.

Understanding cause and effect is very useful but I do not think the responses to this thread would be the same if someone forced their way into the cockpit and flew the plane into a mountain.

I just dont think that mental illness needs to be the first place to go when someone commits a crime that is not understood. It may very well be that he is bi-polar and was having a manic episode. It could also be that he had a different medical issue and is a ####ing loser that wanted to take a bunch of people with him.

[chemgear]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/28/europe...ain/index.html

Die Welt, a German newspaper, cited an unidentified senior investigator who said Lubitz suffered from a severe "psychosomatic illness" and German police seized prescription drugs that treat the condition. Lubitz suffered from a "severe subjective burnout syndrome" and from severe depression, the source told Die Welt.

The New York Times also reported that antidepressants were found during the search of his apartment. CNN has not been able to confirm the reports.

[nieuwy-89]

Great discussion here and I don't want to sound flippant - but for me it comes down to good vs evil. Mental illness may be a factor but I know many people with mental illness who do not murder people. In fact I'm related to a few. They deal with their mental illnesses.

That's why I despise the argument that this man should be excused or absolved if his crime, and that somehow it is society's fault. There is help available, this guy chose to ignore it and murder people instead.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by nieuwy-89

Great discussion here and I don't want to sound flippant - but for me it comes down to good vs evil. Mental illness may be a factor but I know many people with mental illness who do not murder people. In fact I'm related to a few. They deal with their mental illnesses.

That's why I despise the argument that this man should be excused or absolved if his crime, and that somehow it is society's fault. There is help available, this guy chose to ignore it and murder people instead.

He didn't choose to ignore it. He was medicated by all reports, and took 6 months to deal with it. Society didn't shun him, it helped him. When the recommendation came in he isn't fit, instead of being a man and accepting his fate, he had a 150 life taking tantrum like a petulant, murderous child.He knew exactly what he was doing, no voice told him to, and all the evidence points to this being thought out and pre-meditated.

That's what makes this even worse. The professionals did what they could within their legal powers, and he just blew them off, ripped up the recommendation and did what he did. If anything he has done a total dis-service to those dealing with these types of problems, as now, it will give people without any empathy to mental issues, more ammo to persecute people dealing with them.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

While I am glad that mental illness is having increased awareness, it seems that every time someone does something that is messed up it is the first place people go. It should not be the case that is someone does something so heinous that we cannot fathom it that the assumption is always mental illness.

Understanding cause and effect is very useful but I do not think the responses to this thread would be the same if someone forced their way into the cockpit and flew the plane into a mountain.

I just dont think that mental illness needs to be the first place to go when someone commits a crime that is not understood. It may very well be that he is bi-polar and was having a manic episode. It could also be that he had a different medical issue and is a ####ing loser that wanted to take a bunch of people with him.

I think my biggest issue is you can point to mental illness of some type in every single type of violent crime.

Molested a kid - Oh, he's a pedophile, not his fault.

Killed someone to get a promotion - Oh, narcissistic personality disorder.. all he cares about is himself, not his fault.

Killed and ate someone to give it a try - Obviously a psychopath, not his fault.

Got dumped and kill your girlfriend as a result - Probably a combo of a sociopath and borderline personality disorder... again, out of their control.

That is where we are headed, and soon everyone will start getting free passes as a result. It shocked me that Luka Magnotta wasn't let off, when he had numerous documented disorders. Yet somehow Li got a pass.

[Dion]

The 26-year-old flight attendant, identified by the tabloid Bild as Mary W., was quoted as saying Andreas Lubitz, 27, had "burnout-syndrome" and she had been worried about his increasingly erratic behaviour.

The woman said Lubitz would have horrible nightmares and would wake at night screaming, "We're going down."

When she heard about the crash in the French Alps — which killed all 150 people on board — she remembered that Lubitz had told her last year: “One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it."

The woman spoke of his "health problems," described him as being agitated when he spoke of his work, and remembered him saying he didn't think he could realize his dreams of becoming a long-haul pilot and captain.

She added, "He knew how to hide what was really going on and how to hide it from other people."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ex-girl...-out-1.3013485

[Dagger]

I'm probably being daft, but why was he given the opportunity to ignore his doctor's advice? How did Germanwings let him into their cockpit again?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by pylon

I think my biggest issue is you can point to mental illness of some type in every single type of violent crime.

Molested a kid - Oh, he's a pedophile, not his fault.

Killed someone to get a promotion - Oh, narcissistic personality disorder.. all he cares about is himself, not his fault.

Killed and ate someone to give it a try - Obviously a psychopath, not his fault.

Got dumped and kill your girlfriend as a result - Probably a combo of a sociopath and borderline personality disorder... again, out of their control.

That is where we are headed, and soon everyone will start getting free passes as a result. It shocked me that Luka Magnotta wasn't let off, when he had numerous documented disorders. Yet somehow Li got a pass.

You might want to read the below..

Mental Illness Not Usually Linked to Crime, Research Finds

Most offenders didn’t display pattern of crime related to mental illness symptoms over their lifetime, according to study

WASHINGTON — In a study of crimes committed by people with serious mental disorders, only 7.5 percent were directly related to symptoms of mental illness, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.

Researchers analyzed 429 crimes committed by 143 offenders with three major types of mental illness and found that 3 percent of their crimes were directly related to symptoms of major depression, 4 percent to symptoms of schizophrenia disorders and 10 percent to symptoms of bipolar disorder.

“When we hear about crimes committed by people with mental illness, they tend to be big headline-making crimes so they get stuck in people’s heads,” said lead researcher Jillian Peterson, PhD. “The vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent, not criminal and not dangerous.”

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releas...ess-crime.aspx

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Dion

You might want to read the below..

Mental Illness Not Usually Linked to Crime, Research Finds

Most offenders didn’t display pattern of crime related to mental illness symptoms over their lifetime, according to study



http://www.apa.org/news/press/releas...ess-crime.aspx

You're not getting my point Dion.

I'm not saying it's the cause, I'm saying it's all too conveniently being used as an excuse by both perpetrators, and people unwilling to believe some people are just .....bad people. And it is adding to the stigma that all mentally ill people are time bombs. I don't believe that for a second.

Not everything is as complicated as it seems, but as a society, sometimes we make it that way.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by nieuwy-89

That's why I despise the argument that this man should be excused or absolved if his crime, and that somehow it is society's fault.

Has anyone here made that argument?

Originally Posted by pylon

That is where we are headed, and soon everyone will start getting free passes as a result. It shocked me that Luka Magnotta wasn't let off, when he had numerous documented disorders. Yet somehow Li got a pass.

A ruling of 'not criminally responsible' is only handed down in a small fraction of murders in Canada. I don't think we're at risk of "everyone getting free passes." It seems like it's more common than it is because the few cases were someone is ruled not criminally responsible tend to get a lot more media coverage.

Also, it's not anything new. The first application of the principle of not being responsible due to insanity was in the case of a guy who tried to murder King George III in 1800.

[Acey]

Interesting Reddit post from a pilot in the US.

The day after the Germanwings crash, before anyone knew about the cause, the general attitude was a somber and quiet one. Years can pass between major accidents, and a crash like this one reminds you that aviation, as safe as it is, can very easily kill you. It's like getting a bucket of ice water poured on your head and then receiving a slap to the face. The camaraderie between pilots, air traffic controllers, and all aviation professionals strengthens as we suit up to go do our job more safely than ever.

However, after the facts came out that it was a suicide by the FO, myself and many other pilots felt angry and betrayed. This man double-crossed his pilot brothers and passengers, violating the implicit trust in a job where you hold hundreds of lives in your hands. Passengers, instead of looking at us to keep them safe, as they might have in the past, now size us up for our mental stability as we walk up to the gate. They likely wonder if we came to work today to make an honest living or to kill innocent people.

The morning after investigators discovered Germanwings was a suicide, I had to use the bathroom at cruise. I don't think a single person wasn't staring forward at the cockpit door the entire time I exited and re-entered the cockpit. You could have heard a pin drop in that airplane.

What happened is a terrible tragedy, and we are all hoping the TSA doesn't implement a knee-jerk reaction as a result of this one ----. This is the 5th time an airliner has been crashed on purpose as a suicide. If anything, the FAA needs to show increased acceptance for pilots with mental health problems, instead of taking away their medical certificates if they go on anti-depressants.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

I think my biggest issue is you can point to mental illness of some type in every single type of violent crime.

Molested a kid - Oh, he's a pedophile, not his fault.

Killed someone to get a promotion - Oh, narcissistic personality disorder.. all he cares about is himself, not his fault.

Killed and ate someone to give it a try - Obviously a psychopath, not his fault.

Got dumped and kill your girlfriend as a result - Probably a combo of a sociopath and borderline personality disorder... again, out of their control.

You're really reaching here, dude. No one has made these arguments anywhere. Someone can have a mental illness that effects their thought process and still be criminally and personally responsible for their actions.

[Tsawwassen]

It seems Lubitz was "practicing" this on an earlier flight that day.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-rehearsed-fatal-descent-investigators-say-1.3062921