Scouting the 2009 draft

[Pauly]

Originally Posted by Torture

But we developed him.

You say drafting St Louis doesn't count because we didn't develop him properly, but you also say that developing Jarome doesn't count cause we didn't draft him. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

Well yes. My whole argument is when was the last time we DRAFTED AND DEVELOPED a player into a top 10 scorer in the league. No shat sherlock we developed him, your stating the obvious

[Dorkmaster]

Originally Posted by Pauly

Well yes. My whole argument is when was the last time we DRAFTED AND DEVELOPED a player into a top 10 scorer in the league. No shat sherlock we developed him, your stating the obvious

How many teams actually draft and develop a player into a top 10 scorer in the league? Most of the teams actually don't. Such a limited condition. It requires mostly either sucking a whole bunch, an insane draft like 2003 or luck. Consider your odds. Considering majority of the players drafted in a given year never make it, forget even developing into a top tier forward, your odds are very slim.

If you look at some of the drafts like 2002, 2001 etc there are very few "top 10 scorers" even produced. Calgary has rarely sucked badly enough to get those top quality players and when we did have good picks those drafts were pretty weak. Also since Sutter took over drafting there was a major lack of depth in the farm so the way you draft changes.

Look at Edmonton. Drafted Shremp, hugely skilled with massive potential but may never reach the NHL. Getting that "top 10 scorer" is not that easy. Everybody would love to draft your Zetterbergs and Datsyuks but they are the exceptions not the norms. Most of the top scorers in the league are high draft picks.

I would say drafting and developing a Phaneuf is already a huge success.

I wonder what kind of players are currently in the 15-30 range right now. The only name I recognize is Rajala.

[koop]

Pauly,
Drafted and developed a top 10 scorer? Last season 4 of them were 1st overall picks (Ovechkin, Lecavalier, Thornton, Kovalchuk,) and 2 were 2nd overall picks (Malkin, and Speeza). I think we can ALL agree that any GM in the league would have drafted those guys, and development isn't really an issue with players like this (hard to screw up). So are you talking about Alfredsson, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg? Sure good job drafting and developing them, but also a hell of a lot of luck, even Holland admits that.

Your criteria is ridiculous, and I think Flame4Ever did a good job explaining the problems/risks with picking high skill players that have dropped far enough for the Flames to pick.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Torture

But we developed him.

You say drafting St Louis doesn't count because we didn't develop him properly, but you also say that developing Jarome doesn't count cause we didn't draft him. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

We never drafted St. Louis, he was playing in the AHL, after a good college career, under an AHL contract when we signed him as a free agent. Button sure showed his hockey smarts on that one.

[Pauly]

Maybe saying top 10 was a bit ambitious. Let me re-phrase. When was the last time we drafted & developed a top 30 or even top 40 scoring forward in the league? Theo Fleury in the late 80's I would venture to say. This is in part due to our drafting philosophy and also poor drafting over the years. Again, not complaining, just saying I'd like to see more pure skilled offensive talents selected with our usual mid to late 1st round picks, rather than guys like Chris Chucko, Daniel Tkachuk, Chris Dingman and the rest of the 1st round guys that never panned out.

Whether its top 10 or top 40, we havent done it, my point is still valid. Other teams have done it historically, true most were with early 1st round picks, but look how many mid to late 1st round picks & even 2nd+ round picks were available that we passed on, had tonnes of offensive talent when draft eligible and are offensive studs today in the NHL:

- Brad Boyes (2000 1st round, 24th overall)
- Justin Williams (2000 1st round, 28th overall)
- Ales Hemsky (2001 1st round, 13th overall)
- Derek Roy (2001 2nd round, 32nd overall)
- Mike Cammalleri (2001 2nd round, 49th overall)
- Jason Pominville (2001 2nd round, 55th overall)
- Tomas Plekanec (2001 3rd round, 71st overall)
- Patrick Sharp (2001 3rd round, 95th overall)
- Alexander Semin (2002 1st round, 13th overall)
- Chris Higgins (2002 1st round, 14th overall)
- Zach Parise (2003 1st round, 15th overall)
- Ryan Getzlaf (2003 1st round, 17th overall)
- Mike Richards (2003 1st round, 24th overall)
- Corey Perry (2003, 1st round, 28th overall)
- Alexander Radulov (2004 1st round, 15th overall)
- Wojtek Wolski (2004 1st round, 21st overall)
- Brandon Dubinsky (2004 2nd round, 60th overall)
- Paul Stastny (2005 2nd round, 44th overall)

This isn't even including other guys drafted in earlier years like Havlat, Zetterberg, Datsyuk etc. I'm missing a number of other recent guys as well I'm sure. What do all of these players have in common? They are offensive minded crafty players that are creative and sometimes take risks. Enough said, thats why we didnt draft them, not exactly our team philosophy. They werent players that management deemed were "Calgary Flames" type players. Its simple, we dont tend to draft players like this. We really needed Eric Nystrom with the number 9 overall pick in 2002 tho when guys like Alexander Semin, Chris Higgins & even no-brainers like Cam Ward were all still there didn't we.

Backlund may be the 1st guy to change this trend, but it'll take a few years to re-evaluate it. Again, its just my personal opinion that we could draft more raw skilled offensive young talents with our mid to late 1st round picks even if they have defensive question marks just like the Parise's, Roy's & Stasny's that slipped later on, rather than plumbers or two-way guys...AGAIN, just my personal opinion, I'd like to see a mix of offensive minded & creative players injected into the system to balance out the team, having the odd guy like Cammallerri around would be nice, rather than alot of the career 3rd & 4th line plumbers we've generally selected.

[koop]

Originally Posted by Pauly

having the odd guy like Cammallerri around would be nice, rather than alot of the career 3rd & 4th line plumbers we've generally selected.

Unfortunately finding the "odd guy like Cammalleri" isn't that easy. I don't know why you're talking about picks made before Sutter was here, as that would be completely irrelevant to the 2009 draft, which is what started this whole discussion.

While Sutter has tended to pick more 2 way players, to imply that he completely stays away from offensive players isn't true. Just looking over Flames picks since Sutter took over he has taken some offensive players who aren't making the NHL as "3rd & 4th line plumbers": Boyd, Ryder, Puustinen, Backlund, Wahl. Pretty much one pick every draft has been used on a skilled offensive player. Puustinen obviously didn't pan out, but that's the risk you take sometimes on players like this, and the others are still works in progress. Ryder was a risk as well, and missed a year because of that, so you can't say that Sutter hasn't taken some risks to try and acquire skilled players.

Also, Perry?, Parise?, Richards? (I don't even know where to start with that example), Getzlaf? Are you implying that Sutter shouldn't have taken Phaneuf? You really need to explain this, and it doesn't help your point that Sutter was rumored to be interested in Richards if Phaneuf was gone. Radulov........ First the Flames weren't picking at 15, and if they were it would SUCK to have taken Radulov, not a great example of why you should take a risk on a skilled player. The only pick you can really make an argument about is the Chucko one, where Zajac was available, but because of passing on him they landed Prust and Boyd, who are as of today NHL players, one of which is an offensive player, and definitely not a plumber.

I think it's fair to criticize some of Sutters picks, but you make a horrible argument. Not to mention you left out Zajac on your ridiculous list, which is one of the players that most people criticize Sutter for not taking. I'm not a fan of the Chucko pick, so I have nothing against someone saying they think Sutter made a mistake, but your posts on this subject are ridiculous.

[Pauly]

Originally Posted by koop

I don't know why you're talking about picks made before Sutter was here, as that would be completely irrelevant to the 2009 draft, which is what started this whole discussion.

The only pick you can really make an argument about is the Chucko one, where Zajac was available, but because of passing on him they landed Prust and Boyd, who are as of today NHL players, one of which is an offensive player, and definitely not a plumber.

Not to mention you left out Zajac on your ridiculous list, which is one of the players that most people criticize Sutter for not taking.

Reality check. Zajac isnt a top 30 or 40 scorer in the league, nowhere near, likely never will be, not sure who your source is that tells you people are upset at Darryl for not taking him either. I've never heard anything that ridiculous regarding the omission of Travis Zajac from our roster, pretty sure Darryl hasnt lost any sleep over that one either. Boyd has potential for sure but hasnt developed into the offensive threat u refer to him as, he has a career-high 12 points in a season, which hardly makes the argument you're trying to make about the organization drafting high-end offensive talent. Facts are we havent drafted anyone resembling a top 30 or 40 scorer in a very long time, going back close to 15-20 years I'd estimate. Again, this may change depending on how Backlund works out, potentially Wahl a long ways down the road as well. Only time will tell. You're getting a little too invested and worked up over this thread tho there big snoop dogg, take a page from your man snoop and blaze a philly if u need to lower your heart rate.

And no, what started this specific discussion that you felt the need to respond to was me stating I'd like to see the Flames occasionally draft more creative offensive players, even if they have defensive question marks, just like Evander Kane, a top prospect for the 2009 draft that I was discussing here. I followed that up with stating the Flames would likely not take him given he doesnt fit the specific skill-set of players we have traditionally selected in the 1st round of the entry draft (i.e. Chucko). The entire point that you missed was I'd PERSONALLY like to see the team draft more guys like Evander Kane to balance out the team go-forward, which currently has more grinder type guys that play very solid defense, with the exception of only a few guys. What I'm saying is not written in stone, its not in the bible, its just MY OPINION for the last time, of which I've been very polite and constructive about. Again, just my personal opinion, so no need for you to lash out or correct me, but I think the team is better off injecting some offensive minded players into the lineup, we cant just be developing two-way players & grinders year after year. AGAIN, I noted Backlund may be that guy, but traditionally we havent taken guys like him early. For that matter, I hope he is that guy. If not, thankfully for us given our prior draft record there is the great equalizer known as free agency. Not much else needs to be said really, as again, its just my opinion that was sparked initially by none other than discussion of one Evander Kane.

[koop]

I'm not worked up, I'm stating my opinion, just like you. It's a discussion board, if you don't want people to respond to your posts, don't post.

Anyways, the point of my post was to say that you didn't really provide any examples of how there were players Sutter could have drafted that were top 40 scorers, which isn't a very fair criteria to judge a teams drafting on IMO. All of the 2003 examples are crazy because Sutter took Phaneuf. Boyd is a good example of why your post isn't a fair assessment of Sutters drafting, it takes time, and the only way it doesn't take time is when you're drafting in the top 10, which the Flames are not.

[Tilley]

Pauly - how do you know that Sutter hasn't tried to acquire offensive talent through the draft?

Example: On the NHL Network last week there was an inside look at the 2008 draft. They followed Pleau and Burke as well as a number of prospects. At one point there is a call to the Ducks table from Sutter (as indicated by Burke) indicating that Darryl wanted 17 for 25 and 48. My suspicion is that he was targeting Eberle or Tedenby and was making an attempt to get them above teams who also targeted them.

With the little information we have as fans, it's silly to suggest that any organization would avoid or neglect a specific type of player. Particularly one that is so important for the success of a franchise.

Also taking into consideration the amount of improvement most players require from their draft year to make the NHL, unless you have a top five pick there is no way to be sure that a pick will make the NHL let alone turn into a top 40 scorer.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Can we keep this thread on topic?

[koop]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Can we keep this thread on topic?

Why did you have something to discuss? It's a thread about the draft and we are talking about the drafting of the Flames, it's not that off topic. An easy way for you to get it back on topic would be to make a post about the 2009 draft, I just really don't understand why this discussion would be bothering you.

[Pauly]

On the topic of 2009 draft prospects. Has anyone seen Ray Ferraro`s kid play yet? Landon Ferraro is playing for the Red Deer Rebels, he`s supposed to go in the 1st round, havent seen him play.

Anyone have any insight on this kid?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Pauly

Maybe saying top 10 was a bit ambitious. Let me re-phrase. When was the last time we drafted & developed a top 30 or even top 40 scoring forward in the league? Theo Fleury in the late 80's I would venture to say. This is in part due to our drafting philosophy and also poor drafting over the years. Again, not complaining, just saying I'd like to see more pure skilled offensive talents selected with our usual mid to late 1st round picks, rather than guys like Chris Chucko, Daniel Tkachuk, Chris Dingman and the rest of the 1st round guys that never panned out.

Fata was a supposedly offensively gifted guy that they drafted that didn't turn out. It sure would have sucked if they went with the "plugger" in Malhotra instead. Heck, even less skilled Mark Bell would have been a better choice.

When taking guys like Tkachuk (who scored 105 points in his last year of junior so I am not sure how he is a plugger), Dingman and Chucko the Flames stupidly passed on great skilled propsects like Michael Reisen, Robert Dome, Chris Wells, Robbie Schremp and Chris Bourque, but I guess it is only important to list the guys that made it rather than point out the countless number of super-skilled bozos who don't make it every single year.

Whether its top 10 or top 40, we havent done it, my point is still valid. Other teams have done it historically, true most were with early 1st round picks, but look how many mid to late 1st round picks & even 2nd+ round picks were available that we passed on, had tonnes of offensive talent when draft eligible and are offensive studs today in the NHL:

- Brad Boyes (2000 1st round, 24th overall)
- Justin Williams (2000 1st round, 28th overall)
- Ales Hemsky (2001 1st round, 13th overall)
- Derek Roy (2001 2nd round, 32nd overall)
- Mike Cammalleri (2001 2nd round, 49th overall)
- Jason Pominville (2001 2nd round, 55th overall)
- Tomas Plekanec (2001 3rd round, 71st overall)
- Patrick Sharp (2001 3rd round, 95th overall)
- Alexander Semin (2002 1st round, 13th overall)
- Chris Higgins (2002 1st round, 14th overall)
- Zach Parise (2003 1st round, 15th overall)
- Ryan Getzlaf (2003 1st round, 17th overall)
- Mike Richards (2003 1st round, 24th overall)
- Corey Perry (2003, 1st round, 28th overall)
- Alexander Radulov (2004 1st round, 15th overall)
- Wojtek Wolski (2004 1st round, 21st overall)
- Brandon Dubinsky (2004 2nd round, 60th overall)
- Paul Stastny (2005 2nd round, 44th overall)

Well the Flames did pretty well with their 2003 pick so perhaps we can take off the guys you have listed there. Not sure they should have taken any of them over the guy they got.

3rd round guys were passed on by every team in the league. There was a reason they weren't picked early on. Sure it is good on the team that lucked out (and that is what it was or they would have picked them earlier) but again pretty tough to fault the Flames for doing what every team, including the teams that drafted the players did. Plus, again there is a laundry list of guys that were "skilled" and drafted late that didn't make it. Had the Flames drafted those players they wouldn't have been better off but perhaps they would have made you happy.

This isn't even including other guys drafted in earlier years like Havlat, Zetterberg, Datsyuk etc. I'm missing a number of other recent guys as well I'm sure. What do all of these players have in common? They are offensive minded crafty players that are creative and sometimes take risks. Enough said, thats why we didnt draft them, not exactly our team philosophy. They werent players that management deemed were "Calgary Flames" type players. Its simple, we dont tend to draft players like this.

We didn't draft Zetterberg and Datsyuk because they were fringe (at best) prospects at the time. It was the same reason that the Red Wings waited until the 6th and 7th round to draft them. If they thought they were going to turn into the players they were today why did they give other teams 6-7 or more chances to draft these guys? It had nothing to do with the types of players the Flames draft but the type of players that they were at the time of the draft.

We really needed Eric Nystrom with the number 9 overall pick in 2002 tho when guys like Alexander Semin, Chris Higgins & even no-brainers like Cam Ward were all still there didn't we.

Cam Ward was a no-brainer??? He went 25th. No other NHL team before the Canes needed a starting goalie in their system?

Too bad we didn't have the 8th pick so we could have got Petr Taticek. Theres a guy we could have used. Oh that's right 20/20 hindsight is only used when it helps your argument.

Backlund may be the 1st guy to change this trend, but it'll take a few years to re-evaluate it. Again, its just my personal opinion that we could draft more raw skilled offensive young talents with our mid to late 1st round picks even if they have defensive question marks just like the Parise's, Roy's & Stasny's that slipped later on, rather than plumbers or two-way guys...AGAIN, just my personal opinion, I'd like to see a mix of offensive minded & creative players injected into the system to balance out the team, having the odd guy like Cammallerri around would be nice, rather than alot of the career 3rd & 4th line plumbers we've generally selected.

Sutter has said that they drafted to get guys that were more likely to contribute to the farm system then home run types. The farm system was so badly in need of players that they needed to get guys who could fill roles and that is what he did.

Sure guys like Pelech, Nystrom et. al. aren't sexy picks but having young guys playing at the NHL level is much more valuable then swinging and missing on a "skilled" prospect that is falling to the 2nd, 3rd, 7th round. Now that the Flames have a solid prospect base in place it appears that the team is looking at getting a few more of those high risk/reward types. However, the basis of a good team will always be there ability to bring in new young guys ready to play each year, not bringing in top ten scoring talent once in a blue moon.

Heck, Iginla was a defensive plugger when drafted so perhaps these types of picks do actually turn into something. It is possible that a kid at 18 may change into the type of player that he is at 24.

[moon]

Originally Posted by koop

Why did you have something to discuss? It's a thread about the draft and we are talking about the drafting of the Flames, it's not that off topic. An easy way for you to get it back on topic would be to make a post about the 2009 draft, I just really don't understand why this discussion would be bothering you.

I know I just contributed to taking the thread further of course, but talking about the Flames draft history in a thread about players in the 2009 draft does have no relevance in this thread at all.

[Pauly]

Originally Posted by moon

I know I just contributed to taking the thread further of course, but talking about the Flames draft history in a thread about players in the 2009 draft does have no relevance in this thread at all.

I was hoping people were smart enough to just end this & get back on topic as MMF states, I was willing to do so, thanks Moon.

On topic, I'm curious what the dilly is with Ray Ferraro's kid & his gameplay, he's currently ranked pretty high on Central Scouting's rankings.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Can we keep this thread on topic?

Why? The thread has turned into another topic that is pretty interesting.....one that involves Pauly dropping a festering turd of an argument.

Tilley - neat info on the Burke/Sutter trade proposal at the draft. Wasn't the 17th originally the Flames' pick? sutter must have really had his sights set on someone. Kind of explains the difference in enthusiasm when Sutter was describing Irving and Backlund picks vs Nemisz pick....at least in my mind.

[Flame4Ever]

Big, strong, physical, good wheels and an NHL caliber shot. This guy is like Mike Richards with better skating and more size. Will probably slip due to many more glamorous picks being available, but he would look damn good in Flames silks