Luongo vs. Vancouver Canucks

[CaptainCrunch]

Gillis and AV continually pulled the carpet out on Loungo. In the playoffs he lost his starting job not because he played badly, but because Schneider was the fair haired boy. The year before he lost his starting job not because he sucked, but because Schneider was the fair haired boy.

Then he handled it with class, was told he'd be moved. then he's watching the draft and see's schneider moved, all without talking to him.

Its like a woman that's married to a mentally abusive Lout. You're dumb your stupid, he says, you're worthless, you can't even scub the toilet properly he screams drunkenly.

Sure she lives in a big house with a fancy pool, but the day after day mental abuse takes its toll.

Then one day she screws up the courage to ask for a divorce. After a moment of sober thought, he says yeah baby, year. This marriage is no good. I'll let you flap your wings and fly and be happy. Let me just go to the lawyer and get those old divorce papers drawn up.

So he leaves and she happily packs, hugs her teddy bears, envisions a life in a happier place.

Then he walks in with the envelope. Her heart races, she reaches out. He grins nastily slaps her across the face with the envelope and yells "Psych, you're so stupid. I'm never letting you go. You might hate it but your here for ever"

Then he does the man strut out of the room while She crumbles to the floor sobbing.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Locke

Definitely have to hang this one on Gillis.

- Gillis structured the 12 year back-diving contract and offered it to a 31 year old. He had to have know that at some point that contract was going to be tough to move.
- Gillis knew he had Schneider in the organization when he offered Luongo that contract.
- Gillis made it clear fairly early in the Luongo contract that Schneider was the future of the franchise, hamstringing his ability to move Luongo. You cant expect to get good value when you call Schneider the 'future of the franchise' while your previous 'future of the franchise' still has a decade left on his deal.
- Gillis waited to get better value when none seemed forthcoming and the whole thing broke down.

All Luongo did was tell them where to park his truckloads of money. Even his play hasnt been terrible, if anything its been consistent.

Theres more, but to me that was pure inept management that was spending more time trying to look like they knew what they were doing than actually doing anything positive.

Bang on in my opinion. Luongo takes them to the cup finals, and within a year or so, he's given backup duty, despite not having any kind of real downward spiral in his play.

I think the canucks GM really dropped the ball on the goaltending situation. It should become even more humorous should luongo struggle due to the mistreatment and schneider flourish with the devils.

[CaptainYooh]

I am totally surprised at how many people dismiss player's accountability to the contract.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I am totally surprised at how many people dismiss player's accountability to the contract.

What did he do wrong? His game was not that bad and is still a top 10 goalie in the league. Don't think it is realistic to think he would be the best goaltender in the league for the whole contract. Also its the coaches and management that decided to give the keys to Schneider because he was younger and cost less.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

What did he do wrong? ...

I think he went totally wrong by going public about this. By doing that, he made it difficult for himself and Gillis at the same time. Also, if the rumours are true, he quashed the deal with Toronto), although, again we don't know what really had happened there and who did what. He said at the press-conference "my contract sucks". Really? Were you duped into signing it? You wanted that contract so bad, buddy, and you've got it. Now live up to it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I am totally surprised at how many people dismiss player's accountability to the contract.

Players have responsibility, but I dont see how you can attribute any to Luongo in this case.

He didnt screw the pooch. He played, and played well when called upon. He didnt ask for a trade. He didnt tell the Canucks he wanted out of town until the Canucks went public saying that Schneider was the new starter.

He signed that deal thinking he was the fcranchise's starting goalie going forward, and rightly so. The franchise changed their minds and it became a situation of:

- Luongo wants to be a starter
- Luongo is still good enough to be a starter
- Vancouver cant keep them both
- Vancouver chose Schneider.....publically.

The only reasonable solution to this situation is a trade and he was the logical choice.

Luongo is a victim of Gillis not being able to pull his head out of his ass and assess his team and franchise from a 'Macro' perspective and see the whole damned picture. Hardly Luongo's fault.

And goddammit, here I am defending Roberto Luongo? Satan must be ice skating right now, but still, this is still very clearly the fault of the people wearing suits to work in Vancouver. And it starts with Mike.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Locke

Players have responsibility, but I dont see how you can attribute any to Luongo in this case...

All of the reasons you have provided are good. I understand why Luongo would want to be traded after Schneider was announced a starter. But that's not the same as "he is owed to be traded". That's the only point I was/am trying to make. He is still under a super rich contract that pays him a fortune to play in Vancouver. And as much as he would have preferred to leave, he should have kept it quiet and on an agent-GM level. See the difference?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

All of the reasons you have provided are good. I understand why Luongo would want to be traded after Schneider was announced a starter. But that's not the same as "he is owed to be traded". That's the only point I was/am trying to make. He is still under a super rich contract that pays him a fortune to play in Vancouver. And as much as he would have preferred to leave, he should have kept it quiet and on an agent-GM level. See the difference?

I see the difference, but again, they had to trade one of them. The smart money was on trading Schneider as hes the younger, cheaper goalie who will garner the better return. That said, thats also why you would want to keep him, because hes younger, cheaper and will serve your team longer.

But they had to get rid of one of them. I'll stress this part.

Despite what caca-for-brains Gillis told the rum-swilling Vancouver media masses, they could not have them both.

So....which do you want? Luongo or Schneider?

Schneider of course. Younger and cheaper + not insane contract.

Which can you move?

This is where Gillis screwed up. He tied the anchor to Schneider's neck.

Luongo didnt ask, deserve or be 'owed' anything. But if the GM says the Schneider is staying, no matter what, and they cant keep both and still ice a competitive team, as thats too much cap in goaltending, then it stands to reason one of them has to go, and for all intents and purposes thats Luongo.

Hell, I think there was even an interview where Gillis told him he was going to be traded point-blank. Luongo sold his house!

Now, I understand your point. This is all well and good but the situation changed and Luongo's gotta roll with the punches.

I agree, and I bet he will. He'll buy another house and play for the Canucks next season.

Thats not to say that the fault for this entire situation doesnt fall squarely in Gillis' lap though.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Locke

...
Now, I understand your point. This is all well and good but the situation changed and Luongo's gotta roll with the punches.

I agree, and I bet he will. He'll buy another house and play for the Canucks next season.

Thats not to say that the fault for this entire situation doesnt fall squarely in Gillis' lap though.

There you go. And the ONLY reason that got Luongo to the point of team's negative reaction, was his inconsistent play during playoffs. Which is why I cannot agree that the blame for the impasse is on Gillis. It was Luongo/Gillis first (when they signed), Luongo – second, when his play slipped; and Luongo – third, when he started complaining publicly.

[Flash Walken]

It's all on the Canucks in my opinion.

Off season 2010, Luongo is the arguably the best goalie in the league, certainly a top potential free agent. He's coming off a contract that's paid him 6.75 million a year (equivalent to over 7 now). He is looking at a raise, as the cap has gone up and he has shown himself to be an elite goalie (preceding series against chicago notwithstanding).

Mike Gillis goes into that offseason having to sign both sedins, luongo and Kesler. Mistake #1 is going into an offseason without extensions to any of your core group of players. Luongo will not fit on the team without taking a substantial, substantial pay cut. Luongo is likely seeking 7 million a year for a significant term, 6/7/8 years, whatever it is he wants. I'm assuming 8 years, because that's the rough amount of money he earns if he retires prior to what is assumed to be tacked on years.

Gillis says, we can't afford a cap hit of 7 million a year, we can afford a cap hit of 5.5 (because I've made a huge mistake in my contract negotiations). Keep in mind, this is the same Mike Gillis who famously stated he didn't think the sedins were good enough to build around. He had all year to extend them, likely to Daniel Alfredsson sized cap hits prior to the start of the season (which was rumoured at the time. Dave Nonis was apparently going to go to sweden that summer to sign the extensions). Hubris, Gillis' biggest obstacle, prevented that from happening until the Sedins established themselves as Art Ross/Hart candidates (let alone being good enough to build around). Suddenly, he didn't have a choice.

So, Gillis is squeezed by his own arrogance. He can't afford to sign his guys all to the cap hits and dollars they want. How does he get around that? Tacking on huge, cap circumventing years to Luigi's deal. Luongo of course says what any of us would, "So, you're going to give me the money I wanted and more? Sure, I'll take the deal."

This is so clearly and absolutely at the feet of Gillis, it's not worth debating. If we start talking about potential trades that were out there, and apparently a couple were out there, it gets even worse.

What an absolutely unmitigated disaster that guy has been since becoming GM.

[Locke]

Agree completely.

Also...who can forget '2 years $20 Million' to ol' Mats? Hahahahaha!

[Tinordi]

Yeah Grillis is looking terrible after catching lightning in the bottle with the Sedins emerging as elite players as 30 year olds and Kesler reaching his ceiling under his tenure.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Yeah Grillis is looking terrible after catching lightning in the bottle with the Sedins emerging as elite players as 30 year olds and Kesler reaching his ceiling under his tenure.

Art Ross winning Players acquired before his tenure.
Jack Adams winning coach acquired before his tenure.
#1 Goalie Acquired before his tenure.
#1 Goalie as Backup acquired before his tenure.
Selke Winning second line centre acquired before his tenure.

[GirlySports]

I'm with your friend. Lou has not played bad at all and if the Canucks had stuck with him and traded Schneider (ala the Kings trading Bernier) nd not annoited him the golden child then everything would have been just fine and the Canucks might actually have a few more pieces to go the distance.

[ripTDR]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

In light of Tuuka Rask signing a new long-term deal and the general silliness of long-term deals in pro sports, my friend and I had an argument yesterday that had quickly escalated and become very heated. It was about Luongo's situation. Specifically, there was a rumour that Luongo is so upset about Gillis trading Schneider that he's contemplating sitting out until they trade him. Don't know if the rumour has any truth to it, but that's not the point. My friend was arguing that the whole situation is 100% organization's fault, because they've offered Luongo a stupidly sweet deal that Luongo naturally could not refuse and now the contract cannot be traded anywhere putting poor Luongo is in a dead-end trap.

I say BS! Luongo signing was organization's belief in his abilities and commitment to make him a franchise player. His own bad play resulted in him being moved to a back-up position. He can't blame Gillis & Co. for his own erratic play. (For the record, I myself believe that long-term deals are ridiculously stupid by any team for ANY player; this one was no exception.)

My friend further argued that Gillis all but publicly blamed Luongo for the team's missing Stanley Cup; thus, aggravating the situation and making the fans hating Luongo in order to divert the blame from himself for signing a silly long-term deal. So, because of that, they are 100% to blame.

I say, again, BS. Luongo is still under a giant contract and he must honour it 100% by playing as good as he can until the situation resolves itself somehow. He OWES that to the organization regardless of how he feels about staying in Vancouver. Plus, he himself made the situation worse by stating publicly that he wanted to be traded. I believe that players bringing public opinion and media into their own private contract negotiations have their own selfish agenda and they deserve the poor outcome if it doesn't go their way. Firstly, they make trading more difficult by weakening GM's bargaining position with other teams. Secondly, they try influencing their contractual arrangements by the factors outside of their team's control.

In summary, our argument came to completely opposite stands. My friend believes that the situation is 100% the Canucks organization's fault because of the bad contract and bad PR; while I believe that is 100% Luongo's fault, because of how badly he performed and how badly he handled that thereafter. I think that on a personal level, Luongo is the maker of his own destiny now. If he starts playing well at the level of his pay, he will be able to affect his future tradeability positively. On a professional level, he MUST do that same thing, because he is under contract.

Where do you stand on this argument?

he signed the contract as well. if he wants to move hes got to sit down with gillis and expand on where is a realistic place to get traded to.

other than that he can sit and the canucks are the laughing stock

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Locke

Players have responsibility, but I dont see how you can attribute any to Luongo in this case.

He didnt screw the pooch. He played, and played well when called upon. He didnt ask for a trade. He didnt tell the Canucks he wanted out of town until the Canucks went public saying that Schneider was the new starter.

He signed that deal thinking he was the fcranchise's starting goalie going forward, and rightly so. The franchise changed their minds and it became a situation of:

- Luongo wants to be a starter
- Luongo is still good enough to be a starter
- Vancouver cant keep them both
- Vancouver chose Schneider.....publically.

The only reasonable solution to this situation is a trade and he was the logical choice.

Luongo is a victim of Gillis not being able to pull his head out of his ass and assess his team and franchise from a 'Macro' perspective and see the whole damned picture. Hardly Luongo's fault.

And goddammit, here I am defending Roberto Luongo? Satan must be ice skating right now, but still, this is still very clearly the fault of the people wearing suits to work in Vancouver. And it starts with Mike.

Given that Luongo's wife and young children haven't lived in Vancouver for several years I think it's exceptionally naive to believe that Schneider's emergence was the primary impetus for Luongo asking to be moved. It's pretty clear there's more going on behind the scenes.

It also sounds like he scuttled trades to the East last offseason and was only willing to go to Florida who didn't even want him.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's all on the Canucks in my opinion.

Off season 2010, Luongo is the arguably the best goalie in the league, certainly a top potential free agent. He's coming off a contract that's paid him 6.75 million a year (equivalent to over 7 now). He is looking at a raise, as the cap has gone up and he has shown himself to be an elite goalie (preceding series against chicago notwithstanding).

Mike Gillis goes into that offseason having to sign both sedins, luongo and Kesler. Mistake #1 is going into an offseason without extensions to any of your core group of players. Luongo will not fit on the team without taking a substantial, substantial pay cut. Luongo is likely seeking 7 million a year for a significant term, 6/7/8 years, whatever it is he wants. I'm assuming 8 years, because that's the rough amount of money he earns if he retires prior to what is assumed to be tacked on years.

Gillis says, we can't afford a cap hit of 7 million a year, we can afford a cap hit of 5.5 (because I've made a huge mistake in my contract negotiations). Keep in mind, this is the same Mike Gillis who famously stated he didn't think the sedins were good enough to build around. He had all year to extend them, likely to Daniel Alfredsson sized cap hits prior to the start of the season (which was rumoured at the time. Dave Nonis was apparently going to go to sweden that summer to sign the extensions). Hubris, Gillis' biggest obstacle, prevented that from happening until the Sedins established themselves as Art Ross/Hart candidates (let alone being good enough to build around). Suddenly, he didn't have a choice.

So, Gillis is squeezed by his own arrogance. He can't afford to sign his guys all to the cap hits and dollars they want. How does he get around that? Tacking on huge, cap circumventing years to Luigi's deal. Luongo of course says what any of us would, "So, you're going to give me the money I wanted and more? Sure, I'll take the deal."

Yeah, you might want to check your timelines and your facts again. The Sedins were re-signed on July 1st 2009, Luongo was extended a few months later with an entire year left on his contract so the extension didn't kick in until July 1st, 2010, and Kesler was extended as an RFA on March of 2010. Further, at the time of the Luongo extension the Canucks had only $26M committed for 10-11, so I fail to see how they were in some kind of cap crunch.

As for the Sedins, they weren't going to come much cheaper if it all. Their agent repeatedly brought up the Gomez and Drury contracts as comparables and he drew a big distinction between their abilities and that of his other client Horcoff who got a $5.5M a year extension. At one point the Sedins were asking for Zetterberg style deals (12 year $65M or so). As it stands, they've been two of the biggest bargains in the NHL under the contracts Gillis signed them to.

Nice story, but you might want to try to square your basics with reality before you let fantasy take over. As it stands, it's a pretty terrible and disingenuous argument.

This is so clearly and absolutely at the feet of Gillis, it's not worth debating. If we start talking about potential trades that were out there, and apparently a couple were out there, it gets even worse.

What an absolutely unmitigated disaster that guy has been since becoming GM.

If only other Presidents/GMs could ride an unmitigated disaster to 5 straight division titles, 2 President's Trophies, and 56 playoff games (30 of which were home dates) while increasing their franchise value by nearly 50%.

EDIT: I don't want to act like everything's sunshine and roses and I have definite problems with some of Gillis' moves, but calling his tenure a disaster is a little much IMO.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Given that Luongo's wife and young children haven't lived in Vancouver for several years I think it's exceptionally naive to believe that Schneider's emergence was the primary impetus for Luongo asking to be moved. It's pretty clear there's more going on behind the scenes.

It also sounds like he scuttled trades to the East last offseason and was only willing to go to Florida who didn't even want him.

He scuttled those trades? How? With the NTC that....who gave that to him? Oh yeah, Gillis.

More may be going on behind the scenes, but until management anointed Schneider the second coming there were no issues.

I think its exceptionally naive to believe that Luongo signed a 12 year contract with Vancouver that he had no intentions of actually fulfilling, at the very least, the majority of. Not 2 years. The majority.

[flamesfan1297]

It is both their faults beucase Gillis proposed the contract and luongo signed it. Luongo needs to act like a professional and play the game to 100% of his ability and not sit out.

[bubbsy]

i am hoping with the luongo fiasco upcoming, in addition to tortorella coming in, plus not being in the worst division in hockey, that we can enjoy watching the canucks diminish this coming year.

Will be a joy to watch.