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Old 08-19-2017, 05:33 PM   #761
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Gonna leave this here, with the question: Can you name one target of antifa that you would deem "tolerant"?



It's easy to categorise antifa as morally wrong if you start from a position that violence is always morally wrong, but if you view it from the perspective of what antifa is a response to, I think it gets a lot muddier. Is war wrong? If so, is it equally fair to condemn those that defend as those who attack?
In this case you have to debate the ethical view that AntiFa and Neo-Nazi's crave confrontational violence. So yes to me both sides aren't exactly Moral in that sense.

Antifa's aren't some benign group of protestors waving banners, they confront and challenge and violence is one thing that they move to very easily.
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:12 PM   #762
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In this case you have to debate the ethical view that AntiFa and Neo-Nazi's crave confrontational violence. So yes to me both sides aren't exactly Moral in that sense.

Antifa's aren't some benign group of protestors waving banners, they confront and challenge and violence is one thing that they move to very easily.
I don't really think most people who have read a lick about antifa think they're benign flag wavers. Moving to action is at the core of their purpose.

That said, by comparing the desire for confrontational violence and then saying "both sides aren't exactly moral" you can't possibly be approaching the subject in an honest way. Lying by omission, essentially. Because the real key here is that you're comparing the worst part of one group with one of many many terrible parts of the other. Saying "both sides aren't exactly moral" is like saying someone who commits tax fraud and someone who is a serial rapist "aren't exactly moral people," you're technically right, but because there is such a huge disparity between the severity of each moral transgression, it makes zero sense to use the same description for both. It's either too severe for one, or too light for another.

That's why people get irked at this type of discussion or reject it outright. Yes Captain, Antifa "aren't exactly moral," this is a true and accurate statement. But nazi's aren't just not "exactly moral," they're so ####ing far from moral that you would have to be insane or a moron to believe they even approach morality. That's why there's no discussion that can be had where they're compared. You can say both are bad, but you have to make the distinction between the severity of "bad," because it's a casm pretty much nobody else is going to ignore and anyone who does is suspect.
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:14 PM   #763
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Will Nazi's have a rational discussion about the absurdity of their position and honestly listen to outside views?

Will skin-heads stop attacking innocent people if we ignore them?

Will White Nationalists stop spreading their message of hate and intolerance if we just let them be?

I would argue the answer to all of these is "no". Most of the people that are part of these "movements" are either spoiled brats, sad losers, lifelong bullies or career criminals. The only thing they respect is strength. We saw some of that in the crying video and the video of the guy who threw his shirt off as soon as he was confronted. Does that mean violence is necessary? Of course not, but if violence is required to stop them than that's what needs to happen. This why both of my grandfathers fought in WWII.

Ignore these animals and try to rationalize with them at your own peril.
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:37 PM   #764
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If only there was a force of trained professionals to keep Nazis from hurting civilians. Then we wouldn't have to rely on a communist anarchist group with only a slightly better history of violence than Nazis to be the neutral arbiters of law and order.

Dare to dream I guess.
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:43 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by DiracSpike View Post
If only there was a force of trained professionals to keep Nazis from hurting civilians. Then we wouldn't have to rely on a communist anarchist group with only a slightly better history of violence than Nazis to be the neutral arbiters of law and order.

Dare to dream I guess.


I guess I'll just have to dare to dream about the citation you're sitting on for that one! LOL
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:58 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by DiracSpike View Post
If only there was a force of trained professionals to keep Nazis from hurting civilians. Then we wouldn't have to rely on a communist anarchist group with only a slightly better history of violence than Nazis to be the neutral arbiters of law and order.

Dare to dream I guess.


Seriously tho, really shameful post. Awful. I hope you feel bad.
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Old 08-19-2017, 08:35 PM   #767
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^Why are you waiting for that, though? You're looking for someone to offer a counterpoint to your argument that Nazis are worse than Antifa protesters in that particular regard? If so, I don't understand; no one is arguing that Nazis aren't worse than Antifa in that way, and in other ways too.

As to why people are, in general, more likely to act like animals when in a large group of like-minded people, there's lots of research on that point.

I was sort of joking, but it was a reference to the statement, "they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive" - if you've ever had a conversation with someone devoted to postmodernism, it can be a surreal experience, where the very concept of objective reality that can be verified is in question. There's a pervasive reading of Foucault's Truth and Power that is highly suspicious of logic and rationality, viewing them as tools of the oppressor class. As a result, argument based on reason is rejected at the outset, because to engage in it would be playing the game on the terms of the oppressors. Engaging with someone who holds those views like suddenly finding yourself in a Beckett play.

In seriousness again though, if violence can be justified on the basis that your opponents won't listen to reason, well, it's pretty easy for people to convince themselves of that. That seems to me to be far too low a bar to place in front of vigilantism. It's not until you get to the "fists and pistols" part that you're in the realm of sound policy.
i think my point in bringing up the question is based primarily on intent.

The anfita movement isn't something that has been growing in isolation. Rather its strength is wholly dependent on the the Far Right and white supremacists. It is a response to that growth and throughout history, one could chart the growth of Antifa with the growth of the Far Right...

the violence shown by antifa, as far is I can see happen in these large scale protests and counter protests, where there is an ideological enemy: those espousing extreme right ideologies. Rightly or wrongly, they see themselves as a counter balance to that and organize accordingly.

Do people believe that Antifa would exist without the rise of the Far Right?

The point of raising the question with respect to violent acts is one of intent and context. Within a mob, I think we can agree, it can bring out the worst in people from all sides, and often violence ensues because people are on edge...

However, if i were an individual walking past a group of antifa vs a group of white supremacists in the middle of the night, i'd definitely take my chances with antifa.

With all due respect to those putting out the notion that the antifa and the far right violence is the same, you might be right when it comes to clashes when those two groups come together to protest the removal of a statue... however, with respect to incidents that are actually labelled domestic terrorism, the far right has a much bigger threat than antifa is.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...hos-behind-it/
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Old 08-19-2017, 08:54 PM   #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiracSpike View Post
If only there was a force of trained professionals to keep Nazis from hurting civilians. Then we wouldn't have to rely on a communist anarchist group with only a slightly better history of violence than Nazis to be the neutral arbiters of law and order.

Dare to dream I guess.

Presumably you mean the police, but, well. When you have cops with Nazi-style tattoos, I'm not sure how much I trust them to try to stop Nazis.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Of...le-tattoo.html


And on the white supremacist side:
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics...w-enforcement/

Quote:
"Federal law enforcement agencies in general the FBI, the Marshals, the ATF are aware that extremists have infiltrated state and local law enforcement agencies and that there are people in law enforcement agencies that may be sympathetic to these groups," said Daryl Johnson

I get what you're saying--but can you really blame marginalized people for not really trusting the police, given the way police in the US seem to regularly shoot (to kill) first, ask questions later?

Not that Antifa is the answer, but it's an issue far more muddied than just "let the cops deal with it."
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Old 08-19-2017, 09:46 PM   #769
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:51 AM   #770
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That's a really clever cartoon but I wish a better artist had drawn it. Looks something my kid would do.
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:12 AM   #771
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That's a really clever cartoon but I wish a better artist had drawn it. Looks something my kid would do.
I kinda felt that the simplicity of the art spoke to the complexity of the issue it's dealing with.
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