Are the Pens more educated in building a championship team?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Ok let's be clear about one thing:

That is not an article. It is a random stat of the day with absolutely no analysis or discussion around why the random fact is important or even significant.

People often say that 140 words isn't enough to convey the news. Well in this case I'm 100% confident that a 140 character tweet would have been overkill for such a tiny, borderline useless tidbit.

[FanIn80]

The Pens were the Oilers before the Oilers became the Oilers.

The Oilers were just the Oilers before they became the Oilers that the Pens used to be. 10 years from now we'll find out if the Oilers become the Pens that used to be the Oilers, but as far as this discussion goes, the Pens are really just the Pens that used to be the Oilers.

[Northendzone]

Yeah, they took a real chance on kessel.

Maybe there is more science to it, but to me, they are currently no different than the red wings were 10 years ago when they had a bunch of their draft picks work out.

The current blue print involves speed and puck possession. Find guys who can do that and you have taken a first big step

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

People really don't give Guentzal, Kessel, Hagelin, Dumoulin, Daley, Sheary, Rust, Schultz, Bonino etc enough credit. The Pens under Rutherford specifically are a team that doesn't fill their ancillary roster with mediocrity, which as Brad Treliving has shown - is very easy to do. Now with the injury to Letang and more recently Schultz, have they needed Malkin and Crosby to be Malkin and Crosby? Yes, without a doubt. But when healthy they are truly impressive.

I look at that list of players and actually agree with you on some points. Kessel, agreed not given enough credit, but he's also far from an ancillary role filler both in cost and role played on the team.

It's always interesting when this comes up, and I don't really know the answer. Have the Pens filled their ancillary roles well with the players they've chosen, or are the Pens simply in a position where there ancillary role players look better because their core is better thus: 1) elevates the play of the ancillary players that might get to play with the core 2) Pushes the ancillary players down more to their appropriate roster spot to be more effective 3) forces the opposition focus and energy to be spent much more on the core that it gives the ancillary less quality opposition focus?

How often do we see "player X" who we all thought was junk go to a team like the Pens and work out far better than their previous team? Same player, but far more effective on a better team, likely because one or all of the three factors above are working in their favour.

If we use Chaisson as an example. Lots of frustration with him when he, as an ancillary player, was given 1st line minutes with the Flames and not really working out. I bet if he was playing 1st line with Sid in Pittsburg, he'd have looked like a much better player than he did when playing with Johnny and Mony. Why, not because Rutherford would have been better at finding ancillary talent than BT, but because Rutherford's core talent is better.

Truth is it's probably a little bit of both, but we also can't discount that a GM with strong core and key players, doesn't need to fill as big of holes with ancillary talent as a GM with a less effective core does, and it makes their ancillary pick ups look better by default.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

Yeah, they took a real chance on kessel.

Maybe there is more science to it, but to me, they are currently no different than the red wings were 10 years ago when they had a bunch of their draft picks work out.

The current blue print involves speed and puck possession. Find guys who can do that and you have taken a first big step

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not really the same as

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[868904]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

People really don't give Guentzal, Kessel, Hagelin, Dumoulin, Daley, Sheary, Rust, Schultz, Bonino etc enough credit. The Pens under Rutherford specifically are a team that doesn't fill their ancillary roster with mediocrity, which as Brad Treliving has shown - is very easy to do. Now with the injury to Letang and more recently Schultz, have they needed Malkin and Crosby to be Malkin and Crosby? Yes, without a doubt. But when healthy they are truly impressive.

You replace Crosby, Malkin, Fleury/Murray with Monahan, Backlund, Elliott, and the rest of the pens are pretty mediocre.

Hagelin, Daley, Schultz, and Bonino are cast offs, they aren't any better than the "crap" that you are suggesting Treliving has filled the Flames roster with.

The only thing special about the Pens are Crosby and Malkin. It's crazy to see how under appreciated Malkin is. He should be considered the front runner for his second Conn Smythe right now. Half of the guys on the nhl's greatest 100 players list don't have the resume he has.

I'd argue he is every bit as big a contributor to the Pens success as Crosby has been.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Penguins are the Oilers of the east. Lottery their way to their best player and tank.

Not sure how anyone can root for them.

[ToewsFan]

Originally Posted by Redrum

I just wouldn't use teams that suck their way to the top as great examples.

Hey give the Penguins some credit guy. It only took them four seasons of playing like hot garbage to turn into a contender. The Oilers didn't master that skill until this year.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

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not really the same as

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You're right.

It took way more luck to do what Detroit did.

Detroit hit the jackpot of a lifetime two drafts in a row. Deep in the draft. That might not happen again for 50 years.

Pure. Luck.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by ToewsFan

Hey give the Penguins some credit guy. It only took them four seasons of playing like hot garbage to turn into a contender. The Oilers didn't master that skill until this year.

Maybe so, but the Penguins have done it twice to get "generational" star players. I think that qualifies them to be regarded as the Oilers of the East.

[Geeoff]

That being said, I really hope loading up with college players is the path to a championship, since the Flames have a butt load of them.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ToewsFan

Hey give the Penguins some credit guy. It only took them four seasons of playing like hot garbage to turn into a contender. The Oilers didn't master that skill until this year.

What is your definition of "a contender"? Because the Oilers are not yet one.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

You're right.

It took way more luck to do what Detroit did.

Detroit hit the jackpot of a lifetime two drafts in a row. Deep in the draft. That might not happen again for 50 years.

Pure. Luck.

In other words, they won games and got lucky (or had great amateur scouting). As opposed to tanking and/or plain sucking and getting good lottery odds.

Also - a supporter of a team that got a generational player on an 11.5% chance calling any team "lucky" is laughable.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Any team would be already good if they had a generational franchise player to build upon, let alone two or even 3 on a team at the same time.

Disagree. There are lots of rosters in the league with 2 or 3 excellent players who are not very good teams. Look at Dallas. Or LA.

Putting together a supporting cast is much more difficult that people are giving the Pens credit for. If you don't have strong drafting and development you have to fill out the roster with expensive free agents, then you run into cap problems and you have to let good players walk.

Keep Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury on the Pens and replace the rest of the roster with the Stars lineup minus and Benn, Seguin, and Klingberg, or the Kings lineup minus Doughty, Kopitar, and Quick, and you do not have a very good team.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

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not really the same as

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2002 Entry 5 1 Ryan Whitney D

2003 Entry 1 1 Marc-Andre Fleury G

2004 Entry 2 1 Evgeni Malkin C

2005 Entry 1 1 Sidney Crosby C

2006 Entry 2 1 Jordan Staal C

The original Oilers. The Penguins were a foot out the door from Pittsburgh and were putrid for years when the league decided to gift Crosby to them in a closed door lotto drawing that miraculously saved the franchise.

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

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not really the same as

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I was thinking of guys like sheery, rust and bonino (all three of him)
who were drafted a little later rather than the obviously guy like Crosby, gino, fluery

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Disagree. There are lots of rosters in the league with 2 or 3 excellent players who are not very good teams. Look at Dallas. Or LA.

Putting together a supporting cast is much more difficult that people are giving the Pens credit for. If you don't have strong drafting and development you have to fill out the roster with expensive free agents, then you run into cap problems and you have to let good players walk.

Keep Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury on the Pens and replace the rest of the roster with the Stars lineup minus and Benn, Seguin, and Klingberg, or the Kings lineup minus Doughty, Kopitar, and Quick, and you do not have a very good team.

Put Crosby and Malkin on any team besides the Pens and that team will be a cup contender and a winner within 2 years. It's almost a guarantee thing - why? Because any GM having those two superstars will build a team with supporting casts. What I'm trying to say is a contender is built if there is a strong base to build on from the start. If there isn't one, you're always going to be building and replacing pegs until there is at least one strong peg to build upon. The Oilers have done that for years and finally found their strong pegs in McDavid and Draisaitl. The Flames are going through that right now and there are absolutely no strong pegs in the fold yet with this rebuild.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I look at that list of players and actually agree with you on some points. Kessel, agreed not given enough credit, but he's also far from an ancillary role filler both in cost and role played on the team.

It's always interesting when this comes up, and I don't really know the answer. Have the Pens filled their ancillary roles well with the players they've chosen, or are the Pens simply in a position where there ancillary role players look better because their core is better thus: 1) elevates the play of the ancillary players that might get to play with the core 2) Pushes the ancillary players down more to their appropriate roster spot to be more effective 3) forces the opposition focus and energy to be spent much more on the core that it gives the ancillary less quality opposition focus?

How often do we see "player X" who we all thought was junk go to a team like the Pens and work out far better than their previous team? Same player, but far more effective on a better team, likely because one or all of the three factors above are working in their favour.

If we use Chaisson as an example. Lots of frustration with him when he, as an ancillary player, was given 1st line minutes with the Flames and not really working out. I bet if he was playing 1st line with Sid in Pittsburg, he'd have looked like a much better player than he did when playing with Johnny and Mony. Why, not because Rutherford would have been better at finding ancillary talent than BT, but because Rutherford's core talent is better.

Truth is it's probably a little bit of both, but we also can't discount that a GM with strong core and key players, doesn't need to fill as big of holes with ancillary talent as a GM with a less effective core does, and it makes their ancillary pick ups look better by default.

After this post the word ancillary has now been typed 25 times in human history. You were ten of them.

[blankall]

The new lottery system is more or less set up to prevent teams from doing what Pittsburgh did.

They drated in consecutive drafts:

#5 #1 #2 #1 #2

Not quite as bad as the Oilers, but pretty disgraceful. Under the new system a team will never draft 4 #1-2 draft picks in a row.

I'd argue their drafting is poor, as they took J. Staal over Toews, Backstrom, and Kessel in 2006 and Fleury over E. Staal.

[Since1984]

So we all have to agree that the answer to the original post is "Yes" at least compared to all the other teams in the league over the past 2 seasons. Heck, since 07-08 no team has made more Stanley Cup Finals than the Pens.

/THREAD