2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by kehatch

People called it hyperbole a few pages ago for saying the Flames management of the situation has messed with Baertschi psychologically.

The guy was awarded with a starting roster spot a season ago when he showed zero effort in camp. This season he did what the Flames wanted and worked his tail off and he doesn't get one. Talk about a mixed message.

Anybody would be confused and upset. Piss poor management by the Flames. Stop making excuses for them.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest it's still hyperbole.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

First of all, Sven didn't say anything anywhere close to the quotes in that article. If he ever does, then we can discuss it. It's about as useful as a gossip magazine. Media article….sheesh. Have to know the source of the comments as well as the credibility of the writer.

Secondly, Hartley has been remarkably consistent in his treatment of Sven, and considering all the good he's done so far, he's earned our trust in how he sees things. That being said, he's a fan of the kid and, like everyone else in the management group, wants him to work on a couple things so that when there's an opportunity for him (and it sounds like there will be) he'll be ready to come back and take a spot permanently. The whole management group is on the same page, and I think it's a good page personally.

You know, when it comes to Sven and this forum, all the rules of prospect development go out the window. It's crazy how everyone is rushing to his defense over and over again. Flat out, he needs to earn it, and he really hasn't yet. He's been close, but he's never flat out taken a job on the team.

If he was smart, he would try and learn something from Paul Byron or Mikael Backlund who were in nearly the same situation as him over the course of the past few years, and are now permanent roster players. It's up to him and nobody else.

Cripes, I'm getting so sick of this same discussion over and over again.

If you are sick of the discussion then stop participating. Don't expect the rest of the forum to stop the discussion because you don't want to have it.

I disagree with you over the supposed consistent treatment of Baertschi. It's laughable to suggest his treatment has been at all consistent.

If he was sent to the AHL to start the first and second seasons we wouldn't be having this discussion. If he wasn't over hyped by the Flames as the next face we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would be a prospect like Granlund who we are all excited for and on the cusp.

But that did happen. I get its different management and I get they are trying to do the right thing. But you can't just pretend the last two seasons didn't happen. They did happen. The player experienced it.

Your arguing this specific point in time and suggesting that he isn't quite ready and that some AHL time will do him good. I don't disagree with that. But I am arguing the overall player experience and that this is another mixed message in series of mixed messages that is missing with the mental make up of the player.

The player did what he was asked to do. He was given an NHL number. He was good in camp. The Flames touted the Always Earned mantra and he clearly earned it over players like Setoguchi and Jones. That combined with the Flames bipolar treatment of him previously is legitimate reason for him to be frustrated and confused.

And we are seeing it in action. We saw it when he went to the AHL last season. We saw it this camp where he clearly lacked the confidence to be creative. This reeks of the Turris situation and situations like that. It's on the Flames (and in their interest ) to get this under control.

[Red Menace]

Sven was clearly (in my opinion) not treated or judged the same as his teammates last year. That is what is puzzling to many fans.
I didn't expect him to make the opening night roster, the 14 Fwd spots were set in stone...12 one way deals, Monahan and Johnny.
Hopefully he performs in ADK, and is called back soon.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Cripes, I'm getting so sick of this same discussion over and over again.

Originally Posted by kehatch

If you are sick of the discussion then stop participating. Don't expect the rest of the forum to stop the discussion because you don't want to have it.

Yeah I always find it really weird when people get hot and bothered about things that don't really affect them, or go out of their way to get bothered by something that is so easy to avoid.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Yeah I always find it really weird when people get hot and bothered about things that don't really affect them, or go out of their way to get bothered by something that is so easy to avoid.

If it helps, I am pretty upset I didn't personally make the Flames opening night roster...

[Calgary4LIfe]

It seems half the posters here thought Baertschi should have made the team, and the other half didn't think so. That is why this thread is becoming a HUGE thread full of arguments.

For the half that saw Sven play himself onto the team, then sure, the whole 'earned not given' mantra is nothing but a farce.

For the other half (myself included), this was exactly as expected and the correct approach. I don't see an NHL player in Sven yet. I see a high-end prospect that is well on his way to becoming an NHL player, and one that I am excited for. I don't see 'mistreatment'. I saw Feaster trying to save himself or simply trying to appease fans by throwing a kid who was (in my opinion) clearly not ready for the NHL yet into the NHL.

I see Hartley who has a pretty damn good track record with prospects/rookies/youth (and who has been openly supportive of Sven) do what is in the best interests of Sven's development.

If I saw Sven as a bona fide NHL'er at the moment, then perhaps I could understand the venom that seems to be directed at the Flames. I just don't see it outside of spurts. I am hugely excited for Sven as a prospect, but I just don't see him as a 'player' yet, though I expect to see him up on the Flames at some point this season, and will be watching to see if he shows more consistency in his game and looks like he is finally sticking. Just a matter of time, I would think.

I just really don't know why people would point the finger at Hartley and create a story revolving around some personal bias or dislike towards Sven. It is not in Hartley's best interest, it is not in the Flames' best interest, and it is not in Sven's best interest. You may not agree with the call of what is 'right' for Sven that Hartley has made over the last 2 seasons, but 'having it in' for Sven simply can not be one of the reasons. If I thought Baertschi was really a player, then I would connect the dots by questioning Hartley's competence, not some ill intentions towards Sven.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

To be fair, if we're talking about the idea that Sven should have made the team, I think management sees it that way too. The problem with the contract situation (that they made for themselves, no doubt) made them feel it was the responsible thing to give the veterans a chance to keep a roster spot, and failing to do so, will make moves to ship those players out or demote them and bring the players that impressed at camp, so long as they continue to play well in the AHL.

Honestly, this was probably an eye-opener for Brad Treliving. Knowing what he now knows about the prospect pool, he probably would not have signed Setoguchi. You could see in the interview today that he's not happy with him after camp. I feel confident that Treliving will have an ongoing evaluation and make the moves necessary to get rid of dead weight and award players who have done well.

And one last thing: Sven is just one of 6 players that he mentioned today. Bennett, Ferland, Jooris, Granlund, and Sieloff were all players he mentioned as having a good camp and worthy of a chance to stay on the team. Sven still needs to distinguish himself as being better than those guys in the AHL, because Monahan and Gaudreau have already passed him, and if he doesn't decide to pick it up he'll be passed by these other 5 as well. And if you're thinking that he'll get traded and do well somewhere else I say…possibly, but when guys like Josh Jooris are out performing you (even scoring more than you), you likely aren't going to be an NHLer anyway.

[shogged]

In hindsight, this thread is pretty entertaining and a great indicator of those posters who use rational thought, and those who clearly don't.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by shogged

In hindsight, this thread is pretty entertaining and a great indicator of those posters who use rational thought, and those who clearly don't.

Why? Because you simply agree with one side's opinion?

This one just isn't so cut and dry. Sorry. The reality is that Sven will most likely come back up throughout the season and finish the season with the Flames once Setoguchi or other gets sent down or picked up on waivers.

If not with the Flames he may end up in the NHL through another team as he or another prospect will likely be traded at some point to optimize value.

[AcGold]

If you think Baertschi belonged on the roster which left winger did he outplay that he should replace? That's how it works, you can't just be good and get a spot, you have to be better than someone and steal their spot. Sven will be back anyways sooner as opposed to later in all probability.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

It seems half the posters here thought Baertschi should have made the team, and the other half didn't think so. That is why this thread is becoming a HUGE thread full of arguments.

I actually don't think he should have made the team for sure (I don't really have an opinion here) my problem is mostly the carry through of the message. Mostly stems from pre-Treliving, when Sven had a great game with Monahan then gets pulled off and demoted and eventually goes to the AHL. If its just a stupid fan that is confused, fine no big deal, but when your prospect is confused, I see that as a problem. Burke/Hartley/Treliving might have devloped a lot of good players over their time, but that doesn't mean they never make mistakes, and I think how they are handling this one is a mistake. I know when we first drafted Sven and his first year, he was a energetic guy that played hard and seemed eager to learn. Now he seems like he's a little in a straight jacket. Sven isn't Bennett, he's not Byron, he's not Gaudreau. Its easy to say "well he should look at Byron and be more like him" but the reality is, he's a different person and works through things in a different way.

I remain hopeful that Sven can get over the dissapointment and plays his way on the team. The Flames could still be a little smarter about how he does it though.