Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[valo403]

Originally Posted by kirant

Part of it is just a mentality thing. I've done online straw polling and most Americans (that I polled. I can't say whether or not they reflect the population's opinion) seem against adjustments to the Second Ammendment no matter what they're political stripes.

Even more unsual to me is the trend of crime in the US related to it. I don't have the numbers on me (I did this 3 years ago out and posted it once on a forum), but I did a firearm crime per gun in country calculation for all major countries. There was generally a negative correlation between % owning guns and firearm crime/gun ratecapita...which implies that almost every owner of a gun is perfectly good with it. The exception was the US, which led both in % of population with guns and firearms crimes/firearmcapita. It completely bucked the trend.

Of course, this was also done out of casual interest, so I'm not sure you can draw many results from it...especially when I can't remember the exact numbers!

EDIT - Found the post...it's capita, not firearm.

I find it to be quite regional. Here in NYC there are incredibly restrictive gun laws, and Bloomberg is largely praised for it. I find that there are very few people in this region that would be against laws that restrict access to handguns etc. I'm not sure that there's much thought to rifles and the like as the hunting culture really isn't present. On the other hand, living in Michigan there were plenty of people who had a sense of paranoia towards any sort of restriction on gun ownership. They didn't think it was right that anyone could get a handgun, but they weren't going to support laws to prevent it.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think beyond the different lobby groups, its a cultural thing now, America considers itself to be the last great fun culture and it percolates through their whole society.

You can't just walk in and start seizing guns, you need to change their identity.

You also have to consider that the U.S. is one of the larger port nations in the world with vast borders to the north and south, they have a huge illegal gun issue. I would almost feel safe in saying that the illegally distributed U.S. manufactured guns are far outweighed by the guns coming in from the middle east and asia.

Do you think there isn't a large group that feels like it is time for changes? I'm not stating as a rhetorical, I'm asking honestly. Because we have seen a lot of community groups and parents groups and even legislators come out against the current state of affairs. It just feels like they get yelled overtop of a lot by the extremists every time the debate comes up.

I don't know, so I'm just wondering, but maybe there is a silent portion of the debate that is a lot larger than you think?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Do you think there isn't a large group that doesn't feel like there are time for changes? I'm not stating, I'm asking honestly. Because we have seen a lot of community groups and parents groups and even legislators come out against the current state of affairs. It just feels like they get yelled overtop of a lot by the extremists every time the debate comes up.

I don't know, so I'm just wondering, but maybe there is a silent portion of the debate that is a lot larger than you think?

Maybe, I think that you would need to look at that on a State by State basis though wouldn't you.

We know that the Southern States are immersed in gun culture, Texas should have a Smith and Wesson as its state flower.

They are also far more conservative. But its funny, I'm pretty sure if you looked at California which would be fairly liberal in its leanings they would probably be a firm supporter of the second ammendment (I'm guessing man)

The central would probably be pro gun because of the hunting lobbies.

The East coast might be more prone to be on the side of gun control, especially New York because of the crime problems that they went though.

All I know is that as a nation they worshipped the ideals of the whole Wyatt Erp, Jeese James, John Dillenger, Billy the Kid etc. They to an extent respect strength over diplomacy and a lot of that is the right or wrong interpretation of their founding, and then the romantisization of the old west.

I believe that there is a silent group out there getting shouted down on the gun control issue, they're certainly not the older or the younger generation, I'm pretty sure that they would be the middle age generation.

There are too many aspects to change for gun control to work. If you attack the second ammendment you get the fight about being able to protect yourselves from the illegal guns.

If it comes down to security then you have to deal with violent crimes and gun crimes harshly before you can disarm the citizens.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

America considers itself to be the last great fun culture and it percolates through their whole society.

best auto-correct ever?

[CaptainCrunch]

Shadup I'm in bed with a nasty clown.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There are too many aspects to change for gun control to work. If you attack the second ammendment you get the fight about being able to protect yourselves from the illegal guns.

Well, like I said at the top of the page, I think you can get rid of some of the more extreme (usually southern state) laws without touching the second amendment.

But yeah, the whole issue is really tough. I do agree with what you have said. Which is why I mentioned it was a big ol can o worms. And specifically for this case, the largest issue I think is the lack of investigation. Given what happened with the police, and that he obviously disobeyed their suggestion (directions?) I think there is enough there to warrant an investigation even considering the looney (Stand Ground) state law. Whether he felt threatened is definitely in question. (and it's a dumb question to ask, but within the confines of this law and jurisdiction) But not only that, what it means TO feel threatened needs to be more clearly defined.

[CaptainCrunch]

I actually think we're on the same page.

If his nose was broken, he had marks from having his head slammed into the concrete and their is a witness that swears that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman was screaming for help and no one came to help, you suddenly have a picture of a self defense claim under the traditional sense.

If you have evidence, and I'm just going by the reading, that Zimmerman was heading back to his truck and stopped pursuit and he was confronted by Martin, then you have a self defense claim.

I'm not agreeing with it, but you still have to do a better job of investigation then the cops did, so this now shifts from the victim versus Zimmerman to the Police versus policy.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I actually think we're on the same page.

If his nose was broken, he had marks from having his head slammed into the concrete and their is a witness that swears that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman was screaming for help and no one came to help, you suddenly have a picture of a self defense claim under the traditional sense.

If you have evidence, and I'm just going by the reading, that Zimmerman was heading back to his truck and stopped pursuit and he was confronted by Martin, then you have a self defense claim.

I'm not agreeing with it, but you still have to do a better job of investigation then the cops did, so this now shifts from the victim versus Zimmerman to the Police versus policy.

Agreed, pretty hard to pull, 'self defense', or even the more grey, 'possible threat' card with what we know about the case.

In saying that, I am admitting that we don't have all the facts (or even enough facts). But that's what the investigation is for! That's why we have them. When something looks funny, we're supposed to look into it.

And yeah, you are right, it does shift a little to police and policy. I don't wanna give Zimmerman a free ride, but the whole thing is a mess, and there does seem to be an even larger mistake here than the one he made.

[SeeBass]

I guess you need to explain the Stand Your ground Law is like drawing a charge in basketball.

[afc wimbledon]

You cannot base law on feelings, self defense has to be defined by certain physical parameters, proximity of the attacker, were they armed, were they facing you, were you in your home etc.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think beyond the different lobby groups, its a cultural thing now, America considers itself to be the last great fun culture and it percolates through their whole society.

You can't just walk in and start seizing guns, you need to change their identity.

You also have to consider that the U.S. is one of the larger port nations in the world with vast borders to the north and south, they have a huge illegal gun issue. I would almost feel safe in saying that the illegally distributed U.S. manufactured guns are far outweighed by the guns coming in from the middle east and asia.

I think that the vast market in the US essentially drives the 'consumer firearms' industry world wide, without the US foriegn gun makers would be smaller long gun and goverment contract manufacturers, i also suspect that most every gun in the US starts out as legal and then flushes through the system, I suspect most illegal guns are stolen, sold on by individual owners or end up in the far less regulated second hand (pawn shop) market, there is really no point in importing illegal guns in the US as it is easier (and therefore cheaper) to just illegally obtain legal ones.

[Gozer]

Video showing the gunman was unharmed: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/new-polic...rtin-shooting/

[missdpuck]

One of the reasons this law came into being was to protect women and children from the inaction of our legendary ineffectual cops . Apparently they just can never find time to protect the innocent from the good ole boys who never mean no harm.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Video showing the gunman was unharmed: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/new-polic...rtin-shooting/

So this video is after he received medical attention? Are you surprised he's not gushing blood from his nose after receiving medical attention?

I'm not saying he's innocent or guilty, just saying I don't believe all the information is out there and this a something that really the courts should decide.

Meanwhile peoples vigilantism (Spike Lee) is having a negative impact on a poor old couple.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

So this video is after he received medical attention? Are you surprised he's not gushing blood from his nose after receiving medical attention?

I'm not saying he's innocent or guilty, just saying I don't believe all the information is out there and this a something that really the courts should decide.

Meanwhile peoples vigilantism (Spike Lee) is having a negative impact on a poor old couple.

Here is the actual police report: http://cnninsession.files.wordpress....olicreport.pdf

In the police report, the officer clearly states he observed Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and back of the head at the scene.

The officer further states Zimmerman's sweater was wet and covered in grass cuttings on the back.

The officer states Zimmerman had his wounds treated and cleaned by a paramedic while Zimmerman was in the back of a police car.

The video tape released yesterday, apparently showing a healthy Zimmerman, would have been taken after he had been treated and cleaned by the paramedic.

No doubt the paramedic can testify as to the extent of Zimmerman's injuries.

There appears to be only one (1) eyewitness to this incident and that person swears the victim was on top of the shooter, beating the latter up, just as the shooter described. The witness left the scene to phone 9/11 and, moments later, looking out his window, saw the victim laying in the grass.

The victim was actually 6'3" while the shooter is 5'9." Although outweighed by 90 lbs, its not unreasonable at all to believe the "boy" could indeed pin the 28 year-old and wail on him.

Its unclear if this witness gave his account only to a local television station or if he also gave the account to police. His residence overlooks the scene so it wouldn't be hard for police to find him. He wasn't a random passer-by. It would be hard to believe he hasn't been interviewed by the police.

Its unclear if this eyewitness is black, white, hispanic or something else. Ditto the paramedic who treated Zimmerman.

Three other witnesses did not visually see the events. They heard sounds from the incident and reported their impressions to police. One of those "ear" witnesses was the girlfriend of the victim who has made a sworn statement that she was talking to the victim at the time of the confrontation. She said her boyfriend had turned and confronted the person following him. She heard sounds of a scuffle. The phone went dead. She tried to call her boyfriend back. I'm not sure if she tried to call 9/11 when she couldn't reach him.

The lead investigator in the case had recommended "negligent manslaughter" charges in the case, an important distinction for those saying this was a case of a white guy executing a black guy. It almost sounds like the lead investigator is saying: "We recommended you not pursue any further, you did and this is what happened as a result. You have some responsibility in this death, even if you were getting beat up and feared for your life."

The victim had been suspended three times by his school and was currently serving the last suspension for being found with evidence of drugs. Another suspension had been the result of being found with tools commonly used in burglaries. Racial profiling or not, the victim was indeed pretty much exactly the kind of person a neighbourhood watch would probably follow and report. Good instincts by Zimmerman!!!

If the single eyewitness sticks to his account and isn't discredited, weighed along with the eyewitness observations of the officer and the paramedic as to Zimmerman's condition after the incident, I'd bet that Zimmerman will walk.

Zimmerman's father, as a point of interest, is a retired judge. He was on TV today I think: http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...tml#more-53073

Time to break out some popcorn, sit back and wait to see what happens in the end.

Cowperson

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Here is the actual police report: http://cnninsession.files.wordpress....olicreport.pdf

In the police report, the officer clearly states he observed Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and back of the head at the scene.

The officer further states Zimmerman's sweater was wet and covered in grass cuttings on the back.

The officer states Zimmerman had his wounds treated and cleaned by a paramedic while Zimmerman was in the back of a police car.

The video tape released yesterday, apparently showing a healthy Zimmerman, would have been taken after he had been treated and cleaned by the paramedic.

No doubt the paramedic can testify as to the extent of Zimmerman's injuries.

There appears to be only one (1) eyewitness to this incident and that person swears the victim was on top of the shooter, beating the latter up, just as the shooter described. The witness left the scene to phone 9/11 and, moments later, looking out his window, saw the victim laying in the grass.

The victim was actually 6'3" while the shooter is 5'9." Although outweighed by 90 lbs, its not unreasonable at all to believe the "boy" could indeed pin the 28 year-old and wail on him.

Its unclear if this witness gave his account only to a local television station or if he also gave the account to police. His residence overlooks the scene so it wouldn't be hard for police to find him. He wasn't a random passer-by. It would be hard to believe he hasn't been interviewed by the police.

Its unclear if this eyewitness is black, white, hispanic or something else. Ditto the paramedic who treated Zimmerman.

Three other witnesses did not visually see the events. They heard sounds from the incident and reported their impressions to police. One of those "ear" witnesses was the girlfriend of the victim who has made a sworn statement that she was talking to the victim at the time of the confrontation. She said her boyfriend had turned and confronted the person following him. She heard sounds of a scuffle. The phone went dead. She tried to call her boyfriend back. I'm not sure if she tried to call 9/11 when she couldn't reach him.

The lead investigator in the case had recommended "negligent manslaughter" charges in the case, an important distinction for those saying this was a case of a white guy executing a black guy. It almost sounds like the lead investigator is saying: "We recommended you not pursue any further, you did and this is what happened as a result. You have some responsibility in this death, even if you were getting beat up and feared for your life."

The victim had been suspended three times by his school and was currently serving the last suspension for being found with evidence of drugs. Another suspension had been the result of being found with tools commonly used in burglaries. Racial profiling or not, the victim was indeed pretty much exactly the kind of person a neighbourhood watch would probably follow and report. Good instincts by Zimmerman!!!

If the single eyewitness sticks to his account and isn't discredited, weighed along with the eyewitness observations of the officer and the paramedic as to Zimmerman's condition after the incident, I'd bet that Zimmerman will walk.

Zimmerman's father, as a point of interest, is a retired judge. He was on TV today I think: http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...tml#more-53073

Time to break out some popcorn, sit back and wait to see what happens in the end.

Cowperson

Yep, a screwdriver. Obviously, if you carry a screwdriver it's only use is for the commission of a burglary.

Btw, the third suspension was for writing 'WTF' on a door handle.

Sounds to me like he was a typical 17 year old kid.

[CaptainCrunch]

the question is, would the family and the other groups involved be satisfied with a negligent manslaughter charge, or would we still be seeing what we're seeing now?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

the question is, would the family and the other groups involved be satisfied with a negligent manslaughter charge, or would we still be seeing what we're seeing now?

I don't expect the family would be, families are rarely satisfied when the charge is anything less than first degree murder, and the outrage that has spread to other groups is more in relation to what has been perceived as an incredibly bungled investigation.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

A couple of curious things for me from the video:

1) So the back of his head was bleeding, it was cleaned but not bandaged? Zimmerman was the victim of some very, very poor medical care.

2) I guess I just thought cops would be a little more strict and engaged (? for lack of a better word) with a suspect who they just picked up for shooting someone. At one point Zimmerman is just kinda hanging out with his back to the wall. I'm surprised they don't offer him a cigarette.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The victim had been suspended three times by his school and was currently serving the last suspension for being found with evidence of drugs. Another suspension had been the result of being found with tools commonly used in burglaries. Racial profiling or not, the victim was indeed pretty much exactly the kind of person a neighbourhood watch would probably follow and report. Good instincts by Zimmerman!!!

I agree! Great Instincts. Neighborhood watch people should all be blessed with the instincts that allow you to reason following someone around a neighborhood that looks suspicious and not just call it in and let the police deal with it.