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Old 08-15-2017, 03:09 PM   #381
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Its value is what it is - 1% of the project budget. If you think its value changes because it's controversial, that's your opinion, definitely not mine.
That is no longer its value unless you could sell it for that. I think it has depreciated.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:21 PM   #382
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Its value is what it is - 1% of the project budget. If you think its value changes because it's controversial, that's your opinion, definitely not mine.
Cost and value are not the same things.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:28 PM   #383
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That is no longer its value unless you could sell it for that. I think it has depreciated.
That's cool. Everyone has their own opinion and I respect that.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:45 PM   #384
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Reading this thread makes it obvious: most of the posters agree that the city should spend something on public art. 1% allocation of capital project value is not extraordinary.

Those defending this particular installation could be categorized as follows:

1) We, the stupid peasants, are not qualified to make judgements on the quality of this thing, even though we kinda hate the look of it; thus, we shalt trust the art experts who can do no wrong. These people include themselves in the stupid peasants group.

2) We, the knowledgeable, do understand how beautiful/provocative/interesting this $hit really is. You, the stupid peasants, shalt trust the experts, shut up and be thankful. These posters include themselves in our cultural elite and feel sorry for the rest of us.

Both groups are hilarious.
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Old 08-15-2017, 04:58 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by CaptainYooh View Post
Reading this thread makes it obvious: most of the posters agree that the city should spend something on public art. 1% allocation of capital project value is not extraordinary.

Those defending this particular installation could be categorized as follows:

1) We, the stupid peasants, are not qualified to make judgements on the quality of this thing, even though we kinda hate the look of it; thus, we shalt trust the art experts who can do no wrong. These people include themselves in the stupid peasants group.

2) We, the knowledgeable, do understand how beautiful/provocative/interesting this $hit really is. You, the stupid peasants, shalt trust the experts, shut up and be thankful. These posters include themselves in our cultural elite and feel sorry for the rest of us.

Both groups are hilarious.
Hahaha. I take it you're referring to me as one of those 'people', and that's cool. But, if we want to make amusing / sweeping generalizations of others, I can have fun with this too. Here we go: those against this particular art installation could be categorized as follows:
  • We, the general public, know what's best when it comes to art. If we don't like it, or understand it, it sucks and needs to die - especially if my tax dollars, all 2 cents of it, are involved. We won't refrain from commenting on other public projects including suburban interchanges, parkades, and roadwork, however - but art and anything cultural? We're the experts, so back off. Why don't we save money and buy something from IKEA instead? Everyone likes IKEA, and it makes us world class. Rabble rabble, not in my backyard, rabble rabble, local is best, rabble rabble, that passing cloud looks like a damn liberal, rabble rabble.

/sarcasm. All in good fun.

Last edited by Muta; 08-15-2017 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:08 PM   #386
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Ginger beef was invented in Calgary. So we can all enjoy it guilt-free.
Yeah, that was kinda my point Cliffy
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:12 PM   #387
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...We're the experts, so back off. Why don't we save money and buy something from IKEA instead? Everyone likes IKEA, and it makes us world class. ...
That's quite a leap though. IKEA sucks. It's cheap and ugly. Just like this crap. We can't afford a world class public art yet; we're not that big of a city. But, in a purely Canadian inferiority complex fashion, we want to be viewed as world-class in all aspects of our boring municipal being. So, we buy this idiocy for half a million and try convincing ourselves it's world-class.

Many tend to forget that Calgary already is a world-class city. One of the most desirable places on earth to live in. Why bother cheapening it with something like this?
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:14 PM   #388
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If anything Muta, I would say your defence of the rust and rocks is far more honestly given than others. Most of the people defending this piece in this thread weren't even willing to actually defend it. They just wanted the platform to brag about their own superiority.

That said, I agree that it can be called art given "art" is loosely defined at the best of times and it was certainly commissioned as such. However, the simple fact that it causes people to talk does not make it good art, even from an artistic perspective.

This video, for example, documents what can also clearly be considered art, and it certainly made people talk. But that neither made it artistically valuable nor, something that retroactively justifies its need to exist.
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:33 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by CaptainYooh View Post
That's quite a leap though. IKEA sucks. It's cheap and ugly. Just like this crap. We can't afford a world class public art yet; we're not that big of a city. But, in a purely Canadian inferiority complex fashion, we want to be viewed as world-class in all aspects of our boring municipal being. So, we buy this idiocy for half a million and try convincing ourselves it's world-class.

Many tend to forget that Calgary already is a world-class city. One of the most desirable places on earth to live in. Why bother cheapening it with something like this?
The IKEA reference was more of a tongue-in-cheek comment joking 'here, we have art and it's from Sweden! We are world class!' ...even though it's crap all the same.

Calgary is definitely a world-class city; well, definitely on it's way to being one. It's ranked as one of the most livable cities on Earth, but I wouldn't put it in the same 'world class' tier as a Toronto, Vancouver, Melbourne, Vienna, etc. which are all universally agreed to be top 'world class' cities.

I'm not defending the aesthetics of this particular art piece, but you have to remember that at one point the Eiffel Tower, the Sydney Opera House, hell - even our own Peace Bridge - were all considered abominations and the architects (artists) were ridiculed and scorned... until they weren't and the structures, over time, were publically accepted and revered. I'm not saying the Bowfort Towers are going that way, but history has proven that people need time to accept things that are different. This art piece is already a nationally, and perhaps internationally, recognized work, whether people like it or not. It will definitely be interesting to watch what happens here.
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:34 PM   #390
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Disagree. It is controversial art. It was an artistic commission, and executed as such. Just because it isn't popular doesn't not make it art.
So if we burn 1 million dollars of public money is that art?

If an MLA decides to submit expenses for a Condo he is renting out on airbnb is that art.

Is Donald Trump's presidency Art?
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:38 PM   #391
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So if we burn 1 million dollars of public money is that art?

If an MLA decides to submit expenses for a Condo he is renting out on airbnb is that art.

Is Donald Trump's presidency Art?
Were those all artistic commissions? Or are you cherry picking things because they're unpopular and trying to make a (very confusing) point?
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Old 08-15-2017, 06:12 PM   #392
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Were those all artistic commissions? Or are you cherry picking things because they're unpopular and trying to make a (very confusing) point?
But now you are just saying if I call something Art it's Art which is a tautology. The things I selected are things that have generated a lot of discussion which outside of your tautology is your key definition.

It appears your two criteria are you have to try to make Art and it should evoke discussion.

If that's all it is a pretty poor thing to value.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:37 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by CaptainYooh View Post
We can't afford a world class public art yet; we're not that big of a city. But, in a purely Canadian inferiority complex fashion, we want to be viewed as world-class in all aspects of our boring municipal being. So, we buy this idiocy for half a million and try convincing ourselves it's world-class.
While Cloud Gate is way more expensive that the Bowfort Towers, Charging Bull is on the same order of magnitude. I would not consider it accurate that we "can't afford world-class public art", even though you might not consider Charging Bull world-class. Art doesn't have to be expensive to be great.

I don't know whether you're saying our public art program stems from an inferiority complex or just this piece? If the latter, why do you think the motivations for this one would be any different from the motivations behind the more successful pieces?
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:53 AM   #394
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Why does Calgary's public art philosophy come across like a guy who just won the lottery, thinking if he spends a lot of money it must be good and some vested 3rd party tells him it is?
And GGG, I'll commission one of your art pieces for the sum of a dollar if that's moves the needle to art from not. Of course, you'll need to supply your own million dollars for burning.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:37 AM   #395
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This.

Never understood the big brouahaha about cultural appropriation. No, having borderline racist sports emblems and names are poor, but most appropriation is simple innocent and fine. I shouldn't eat ginger beef?
It's an example of what happens when an originally neutral academic concept gets hijacked by the academically illiterate for pseudopolitical reasons.

Here's an excellent youtuber talking about the issue. The cultural appropriation part starts at 12:24, and the first part isn't really necessary to understand that part. Hence the direct link. You get the jist in about 3-4 minutes, but it's well worth watching longer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ARX...tu.be&t=12m24s
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:06 PM   #396
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While Cloud Gate is way more expensive that the Bowfort Towers, Charging Bull is on the same order of magnitude. I would not consider it accurate that we "can't afford world-class public art", even though you might not consider Charging Bull world-class. Art doesn't have to be expensive to be great....Save
While a relatively small "Charging Bull" statue (approx. $750,000 US in today's dollars) is very popular with tourists and residents now, it actually was NOT a public art commission. It was made on sculptor's own risk and installed unsolicited. The public liked it so much, it forced the Manhattan officials to install it on Wall Street! I have zero doubts, if officially commissioned by the City of New York, it would have costed a lot more money even in those dark days after the 1987 stock market collapse. And, yes, I agree, the $23M "Cloud Gate" is beautifully made and placed.


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...
I don't know whether you're saying our public art program stems from an inferiority complex or just this piece? If the latter, why do you think the motivations for this one would be any different from the motivations behind the more successful pieces?
I've tried to make this point a few times already. Our overarching motivation to make the city more beautiful is natural and supportable. But our politicians on both ends of the fiscal meter, fear to trust the people that elected them with making even the most innocent and harmless decisions, such as selecting significant public decoration pieces (I just can't make myself calling it art, as I don't think it is; but that's totally irrelevant for this discussion. It doesn't matter, what you call it). They worry that by letting public select a more likeable piece (e.g., a charging bull), they'd make Calgary appear less progressive and forward-thinking to the world (which in reality doesn't care about it at all). So, they appoint committees of "experts" (Madeleine King - an art expert, seriously???), then they create silly, unreasonable mandates and regulations for those committees, practically encouraging them to make choices like Bowfort and blue ring and then, after the public outcry, they say: "oh, well, it was the Board's decision, it was within regulations, our hands were tied" and all that other BS they say.

It is that process that I really loathe the most.
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:55 PM   #397
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I think people should have more faith in their fellow citizens, when asked to judge art on the whole ordinary voters are actually quite open to art, The Angel of the North has been overwhelmingly accepted as a good thing in the UK, its even beloved despite being very modern.

non art school educated voters don't fall for the more ludicrous bull#### that is purveyed in the art world but that's a good thing.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:24 PM   #398
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Charging Bull is also interesting because of the unsolicited addition of the Fearless Girl statue - which has seriously upset the original artist as it alters the meaning of his work. There are, I believe, lawsuits flying over that.
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Old 08-16-2017, 02:09 PM   #399
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Charging Bull is also interesting because of the unsolicited addition of the Fearless Girl statue - which has seriously upset the original artist as it alters the meaning of his work. There are, I believe, lawsuits flying over that.
The original artist has been told to go pound salt by the courts, he didn't ask permission to put the Bull there so he can't argue he has any rights to the space.
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Old 08-17-2017, 03:58 PM   #400
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I have zero doubts, if officially commissioned by the City of New York, it would have costed a lot more money even in those dark days after the 1987 stock market collapse.
While Charging Bull was not a commission, I still think it serves as an example as bang-for-the-buck public art. Del Geist has said that over 90% of the cost of Bowfort Towers went to production+installation, leaving at most 10% as his profit. Why do you think there would be a major cost difference if it were commissioned?
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