Law School Advice?

[Charsiu]

Howdy folks,

Longtime lurker, first time poster. Having graduated university about 5 years back I'm at a point where I'm unsatisfied with my career path. I've recently started studying for the LSAT and am hoping to write in September or December and see about going back to study law.

I remember a few years back there was a poster who was in a bit of a quandary. He'd been a lawyer for a few years and was finding his work to be frustratingly unfulfilling and discouragingly dull. I know that there are other lawyers who post here and I was wondering if any would have the grace or time to offer a bit of honest advice.

I know that law isn't the sure fire career path it once seemed to be. Competition to get into schools is fierce, there is no guarantee of a job upon graduation, and if there is, you might have to broaden your expectations of what's on offer.

I guess I want to know, is do you enjoy what you do? Is it worth the investment of time and money? Should I just suck it up and work the typical fare that is on offer to me with my Bachelor of Arts? Maybe it seems entitled but the work that I do is kind of boring and I'm pretty sure I could do better but am being held back by lack of accreditation.

Anyway, thanks in advance. Anyone who'd care to weigh in on this will be appreciated.

[HockeyIlliterate]

If you can get a full ride and have nothing better to do with your time, then go for it.

Otherwise, think long and hard about law school.

In regards to the competition in law school itself, note that--in general--everyone in law school was in the top 10% of their class in college. That level of success will not, by definition, continue in law school.

In regards to the salaries upon graduation, note that they are extremely bimodal.

In regards to the job opportunities available upon graduation, well, what kind of law do you want to practice?

Additionally, read some of these articles in the meantime:

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/l...ependence.html

Some studies suggest that lawyers abuse substances at a higher rate than the general population.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/b...al-health.html

That 2016 report, from the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation and the American Bar Association, analyzed the responses of 12,825 licensed, practicing attorneys across 19 states.

Over all, the results showed that about 21 percent of lawyers qualify as problem drinkers, while 28 percent struggle with mild or more serious depression and 19 percent struggle with anxiety.

Only 3,419 lawyers answered questions about drug use, and that itself is telling, said Patrick Krill, the study’s lead author and also a lawyer. “It’s left to speculation what motivated 75 percent of attorneys to skip over the section on drug use as if it wasn’t there.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...pressed-lawyer

According to an often cited Johns Hopkins University study of more than 100 occupations, researchers found that lawyers lead the nation with the highest incidence of depression.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...e-quit/375199/

Law-firm associate consistently ranks at the top of unhappy-professions lists and despite starting salaries of $160,000, law firms experience significant yearly associate attrition.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Charsiu

Howdy folks,

Longtime lurker, first time poster. Having graduated university about 5 years back I'm at a point where I'm unsatisfied with my career path. I've recently started studying for the LSAT and am hoping to write in September or December and see about going back to study law.

I remember a few years back there was a poster who was in a bit of a quandary. He'd been a lawyer for a few years and was finding his work to be frustratingly unfulfilling and discouragingly dull. I know that there are other lawyers who post here and I was wondering if any would have the grace or time to offer a bit of honest advice.

I know that law isn't the sure fire career path it once seemed to be. Competition to get into schools is fierce, there is no guarantee of a job upon graduation, and if there is, you might have to broaden your expectations of what's on offer.

I guess I want to know, is do you enjoy what you do? Is it worth the investment of time and money? Should I just suck it up and work the typical fare that is on offer to me with my Bachelor of Arts? Maybe it seems entitled but the work that I do is kind of boring and I'm pretty sure I could do better but am being held back by lack of accreditation.

Anyway, thanks in advance. Anyone who'd care to weigh in on this will be appreciated.

no advice, but being bored by your work doesn't mean you're entitled. I wouldn't call yourself that.
feeling your work is beneath you, perhaps. but not by being unchallenged by it.

[Charsiu]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

If you can get a full ride and have nothing better to do with your time, then go for it.

Otherwise, think long and hard about law school.

In regards to the competition in law school itself, note that--in general--everyone in law school was in the top 10% of their class in college. That level of success will not, by definition, continue in law school.

In regards to the salaries upon graduation, note that they are extremely bimodal.

In regards to the job opportunities available upon graduation, well, what kind of law do you want to practice?

It's not as though I have nothing better to do with my time, rather I am trying to determine if this is the best usage of my time. No I wouldn't be receiving a full ride, from what I understand the opportunity for scholarships are extremely rare in Canada, just hoping that the end result would justify the necessary steps taken.

As for what I want to do, I've spoken with a number of lawyer acquaintances and they've told me that its best to have a fluid flexible mindset, as you learn what things entail, you should be open to the opportunities which present themselves.

Anyway I appreciate all of the sober reading material and will certainly take a read.

[blankall]

Many lawyers are, by their nature, people who like to complain and people who feel entitled. A lot of law school students also get caught up in some fantasy about their career, and then become disillusioned when the reality doesn't match up. Being a lawyer is like most other jobs. You have bosses, managers, angry customers, etc...When I'm down on my job, I always remind myself it's better than cleaning out the deep fryers at Earls.

The salaries can be very high, but you won't get there without working hard. The reality of the situation is that there are a lot of lawyers out there. So firms have cut back on salaries (relative to inflation at least) while not decreasing work hours. So if you are at the bottom of a firm, you will work very stressful and long hours without a huge monetary reward for that work. The vast majority of people who succeed at large firms have connections, either in law or an industry that can bring in business. Usually these are family connections.

There has been a huge generational shift, where work loads have increased substantially for lawyers, but the monetary payouts and buying power of their salaries have decreased. Although, this may be a problem with society as a whole, and not reserved to the legal industry. For example, my friend's father, with his 4 year call salary, purchased his home and the office building he worked in. Most new lawyers today rent reasonably sized apartments.

Even working for a small firm can be difficult, as it will require dealing with a senior lawyer. Many lawyers who are great at law have less than enjoyable personalities. Basically, dealing with other lawyers is probably the worst part of the job.

In terms of "job satisfaction", I think that one again goes back to an issue of expectations. I can't think of any paying jobs that provide a constant feeling of satisfaction or positive feedback. Law may be different, in that it's an industry of conflict, so there is an added psychological toll, which can be overwhelming.

My advice would be that if you have a specific industry you are interested in, pursue that instead of law school or perhaps consider an MBA towards that goal. Also, realize that law school and being a lawyer are a huge commitment. That being said, I know several people from law school who just said F-it and worked in other industries post law school. So even if being a lawyer isn't for you there are other options.

[Charsiu]

Originally Posted by blankall

The salaries can be very high, but you won't get there without working hard. The reality of the situation is that there are a lot of lawyers out there. So firms have cut back on salaries (relative to inflation at least) while not decreasing work hours. So if you are at the bottom of a firm, you will work very stressful and long hours without a huge monetary reward for that work. The vast majority of people who succeed at large firms have connections, either in law or an industry that can bring in business. Usually these are family connections.

There has been a huge generational shift, where work loads have increased substantially for lawyers, but the monetary payouts and buying power of their salaries have decreased. Although, this may be a problem with society as a whole, and not reserved to the legal industry. For example, my friend's father, with his 4 year call salary, purchased his home and the office building he worked in. Most new lawyers today rent reasonably sized apartments.

My advice would be that if you have a specific industry you are interested in, pursue that instead of law school or perhaps consider an MBA towards that goal. Also, realize that law school and being a lawyer are a huge commitment. That being said, I know several people from law school who just said F-it and worked in other industries post law school. So even if being a lawyer isn't for you there are other options.

I hear what you're saying but I feel as though much of what you say holds true for most jobs. High competition, stressful hours with seemingly less than commensurate wages, family connections needed to get ahead. Like you said these are common pitfalls across most industries.

I just feel that the potential benefits and paths which a JD offers outweigh the impediments you describe above. I don't have any preconceived notions about what the degree would offer nor do I have an unrealistic trajectory planned out. From what I understand the skillset which a JD affords you is fairly transferable, whereas I feel that all an MBA prepares you for is how to organize your contacts list and how to nod pensively when you hear the right managerial buzzword.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I wasn't going to post but I'll just fact check this one.

Originally Posted by blankall

A lot of law school students also get caught up in some fantasy about their career, and then become disillusioned when the reality doesn't match up.

True. But probably true of most careers. People have an idealized version of what their life is going to be like.

The salaries can be very high, but you won't get there without working hard.

It's more that the salaries can be high, but there aren't that many of those jobs, so you have to be both good and lucky to end up with one, and even then, you have to happen to enjoy the type of work you're being asked to do. The "hard work" aspect is just a given regardless of your wage.

The reality of the situation is that there are a lot of lawyers out there. So firms have cut back on salaries (relative to inflation at least) while not decreasing work hours. So if you are at the bottom of a firm, you will work very stressful and long hours without a huge monetary reward for that work.

So, first, not really true. There are more law school graduates than there used to be, sure, but it's not like there are a plethora of capable lawyers such that we can just pay people whatever we want because they're easily replaced. It's actually pretty damned hard to find good people to hire, especially with experience. When you find a good lateral it's like winning the lottery.

Second, yeah you're working stressful long hours, but to say it's not a huge monetary reward, well, depends where you're working. A 26 year old second year associate at BJ's is probably making more than my dad made at any point in his entire teaching career.

The vast majority of people who succeed at large firms have connections, either in law or an industry that can bring in business. Usually these are family connections.

This isn't true at all. Some people have connections that helped them get a leg up, but it isn't the vast majority. And it's certainly no guarantee of success.

There has been a huge generational shift, where work loads have increased substantially for lawyers, but the monetary payouts and buying power of their salaries have decreased. Although, this may be a problem with society as a whole, and not reserved to the legal industry. For example, my friend's father, with his 4 year call salary, purchased his home and the office building he worked in. Most new lawyers today rent reasonably sized apartments.

Yeah, and my aforementioned dad bought a house on a double lot in his 20's on a teacher's salary. That lot's now worth well over a million dollars. As you say, this is a society-wide phenomenon. It's certainly true though that most new lawyers are renting apartments, not buying houses, at least for a year or two.

Even working for a small firm can be difficult, as it will require dealing with a senior lawyer. Many lawyers who are great at law have less than enjoyable personalities. Basically, dealing with other lawyers is probably the worst part of the job.

Again, not true. Yes, some lawyers are huge a-holes and difficult to deal with. But - and this is especially true in Alberta and probably Saskatchewan too - lawyers are for the most part a breeze to deal with. I almost never have a problem with opposing counsel in Calgary. A large part of that is that everyone's been there before and they know the drill. I suspect that for most lawyers the biggest annoyance is dealing with their clients, who don't know how things work and don't have realistic expectations, but that again is going to depend on your area. If your clients are sophisticated commercial entities, fine, if you do family law... yikes.

That being said, I know several people from law school who just said F-it and worked in other industries post law school. So even if being a lawyer isn't for you there are other options.

True. Lots of people do this and I doubt they'd say the time and money they spent going to law school was wasted. But it's a lot of time and a lot of money, and I wouldn't suggest doing it unless you really want to do the job. Being bored with what you're doing right now is a bad reason to get into it.

[Charsiu]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I wasn't going to post but I'll just fact check this one.

True. Lots of people do this and I doubt they'd say the time and money they spent going to law school was wasted. But it's a lot of time and a lot of money, and I wouldn't suggest doing it unless you really want to do the job. Being bored with what you're doing right now is a bad reason to get into it.

Is it really such a bad idea to try something new out because I find my current work unfulfilling? What motivated you to enter law? Did your goals and aspirations come to fruition just as you had hoped?

It's not simply a matter of me being bored of my work in the moment, my primary motivation are the lack of opportunities currently available and the desire to begin something before I'm too entrenched in something or overly investing something in order to convince myself it's the path for me until I have no other options. I think it's a job I'd be capable of and am at least committed to take the first step (the LSAT) and see from there.

Thanks for the insight.

[Locke]

When is it appropriate to start in with the Lawyer jokes?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Charsiu

Is it really such a bad idea to try something new out because I find my current work unfulfilling? What motivated you to enter law? Did your goals and aspirations come to fruition just as you had hoped?

I don't really want to talk about my career path on an internet forum, but in general, I would say that the only reason to try to become a lawyer that makes any sense at all is that you really want to practice law and think you're going to enjoy it and be good at it. From what you're saying, you don't sound like you really want to do law for its own sake. You're just looking for something that you see as a good job that's different from what you're doing now. You wouldn't be the first person to consider law school for that reason (or a reason similar to that), and I'm just saying, that often ends poorly.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

First off, it seems like you have a pretty open mind about what the experience may bring and are frankly much better prepared than I was entering law school. The motivator should not be money or prestige, but rather a genuine interest. The opportunity costs are high, in giving up 3 years of employment and potentially taking on debt to go, but the upside is also there as it can open up a lot of doors. It isn't just about working at a big firm and becoming a partner; there are many different jobs that are legal related.

My experience was largely positive. Loved law school as it was intellectually stimulating. Hated the big firm life, as it was nothing like law school and I wasn't able to find my niche. Smaller firm fit me much better and I worked at one firm for nearly 15 years. Sadly that blew up (as they often do), and I ended up in-house at a large oil company. Really enjoy the business aspect of in-house work and wouldn't trade it for the world. Your experience will be different, but I just wanted to make clear that there are a myriad of choices that are available with a law degree, so you can make the most of it which works for you. I recommend at least giving the LSAT a shot and go from there.

[Locke]

I swear, CP is like 50% lawyers.

Which raises some serious allegations concerning some of those 'Billable Hours.'

[Zarley]

I thought about going to law school, but went the CFA route instead. Main reason being that I wanted to be at the forefront of strategy and decision making rather than the one doing DD on decisions already made. Whether or not it's correct, most legal functions are viewed by firms as cost centres rather than profit centres.

I find the in-court aspects of the legal profession fascinating, as well as the dispute resolution area, however I couldn't see myself dedicating 3 years to a JD/LLB.

[nightfx]

Originally Posted by Charsiu

Is it really such a bad idea to try something new out because I find my current work unfulfilling? What motivated you to enter law? Did your goals and aspirations come to fruition just as you had hoped?

It's not simply a matter of me being bored of my work in the moment, my primary motivation are the lack of opportunities currently available and the desire to begin something before I'm too entrenched in something or overly investing something in order to convince myself it's the path for me until I have no other options. I think it's a job I'd be capable of and am at least committed to take the first step (the LSAT) and see from there.

Thanks for the insight.

I think the best reason to get into law would not be because of what you're doing right now but because you have a strong interest in law and truly want pursue a career as a lawyer. That way you don't end up in the same situation a few years down the road having a existential crisis.

[Charsiu]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I don't really want to talk about my career path on an internet forum, but in general, I would say that the only reason to try to become a lawyer that makes any sense at all is that you really want to practice law and think you're going to enjoy it and be good at it. From what you're saying, you don't sound like you really want to do law for its own sake. You're just looking for something that you see as a good job that's different from what you're doing now. You wouldn't be the first person to consider law school for that reason (or a reason similar to that), and I'm just saying, that often ends poorly.

While I certainly don't want to get into an argument about what constitutes a good enough reason to become a lawyer, especially with someone who has found success and by the sounds of it, satisfaction with their decision, I would argue that I've come to realize that my skill set and personality seem suited, for what I imagine, the career entails. For this reason, I feel like its worth exploring further. So you have misread my intentions if you feel that I am simply looking for a career upgrade. Besides, I'm at the most preliminary of stages and feel that if I was to write the LSAT, do well enough on it to apply, and change my mind some months down the road, it would not be a wasted venture, nor one that I would regret.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I wasn't going to post but I'll just fact check this one.

True. But probably true of most careers. People have an idealized version of what their life is going to be like.

It's more that the salaries can be high, but there aren't that many of those jobs, so you have to be both good and lucky to end up with one, and even then, you have to happen to enjoy the type of work you're being asked to do. The "hard work" aspect is just a given regardless of your wage.

So, first, not really true. There are more law school graduates than there used to be, sure, but it's not like there are a plethora of capable lawyers such that we can just pay people whatever we want because they're easily replaced. It's actually pretty damned hard to find good people to hire, especially with experience. When you find a good lateral it's like winning the lottery.

Second, yeah you're working stressful long hours, but to say it's not a huge monetary reward, well, depends where you're working. A 26 year old second year associate at BJ's is probably making more than my dad made at any point in his entire teaching career.

I'd look at the hours worked vs. compensation. Lawyers, when working for firms, generally don't get pensions, benefits, job security, union benefits, etc...

Making $100k with extremely long hours is probably not preferable to making $60k with these things.

My other point was that the buying power of $10k in disposable income is so low, that you really need to consider whether the long hours/stress make it worth it.

There are 2 main paths in law of getting out of that comfortable salary, yet horrendous work hours, zone. The first is the aforementioned working your way up the law firm chain. The second involves starting your own business. Not all lawyers have the skills necessary for the later.

Before you respond to this, I'd like you to think about what are your 8-10 year call associates (I'm including non-equity partners and other random titles) actually making? What percentage of law graduates who reach this level are? What percentage of those associates fit into the family connection category?

Basically, my point is that the odds are against law school graduates finding success within the typical law firm model, due to factors both within and outside their control.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This isn't true at all. Some people have connections that helped them get a leg up, but it isn't the vast majority. And it's certainly no guarantee of success.

Yeah, and my aforementioned dad bought a house on a double lot in his 20's on a teacher's salary. That lot's now worth well over a million dollars. As you say, this is a society-wide phenomenon. It's certainly true though that most new lawyers are renting apartments, not buying houses, at least for a year or two.

Law is a business like any other. The ability to bring in business (aka be a rainmaker) is arguably the single most important skill when working your way up in a law firm. Yes, you can make these connections on your own, but, if you work 70 hours a week, its very difficult. It's much easier if you just have the connections to start with.

And no, having the connections isn't a guarantee of success. However, having the combination of both being competent and having the connections will set you apart. When you typically have 1/20 junior lawyers sticking around beyond year 10 of call, then being set apart via connections becomes a huge factor.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Again, not true. Yes, some lawyers are huge a-holes and difficult to deal with. But - and this is especially true in Alberta and probably Saskatchewan too - lawyers are for the most part a breeze to deal with. I almost never have a problem with opposing counsel in Calgary. A large part of that is that everyone's been there before and they know the drill. I suspect that for most lawyers the biggest annoyance is dealing with their clients, who don't know how things work and don't have realistic expectations, but that again is going to depend on your area. If your clients are sophisticated commercial entities, fine, if you do family law... yikes.

True. Lots of people do this and I doubt they'd say the time and money they spent going to law school was wasted. But it's a lot of time and a lot of money, and I wouldn't suggest doing it unless you really want to do the job. Being bored with what you're doing right now is a bad reason to get into it.

This may pertain more to litigation, but being difficult is most certainly a common tactic that many lawyers employ, either consciously or not. Withholding documents, refusing to respond to phone calls, demanding frivolous applications, losing their temper, etc...

Yes, the majority of lawyers probably don't fit this description, but a lot do. If you have 100 files, and even 10 involve dealing with difficult counsel, then yes, it can have a significant effect on your ability to take satisfaction from your job.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Locke

When is it appropriate to start in with the Lawyer jokes?

Careful or you will depress them. I mean why do lawyers exist anyways? So accountants have someone to laugh at?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by nightfx

I think the best reason to get into law would not be because of what you're doing right now but because you have a strong interest in law and truly want pursue a career as a lawyer. That way you don't end up in the same situation a few years down the road having a existential crisis.

To add to this, do your best to stay open to non-law opportunities while you're actually in law school. Don't get caught up in a paper chase.

Based on what I've seen, I personally think an MBA or accounting degree would be a better route to take if you want to get into another non-law area and you just don't know what to do. Making the move into business can be done via law school, for example, going in house or just straight up applying for a management/executive position using law experience. One thing to be wary of is that it's not necessarily easy to find a law job in the area/industry you are looking to break into. For example, if your dream is to get into an industry via intellectual property, contract, or entertainment law, you may find it extremely difficult and competitive to find law jobs that actually provide you with this experience.

If you genuinely want to try your hand at being a lawyer, then obviously you will need to go to law school.

[Cheese]

The kid is putting up a good argument...that in itself should lend himself well to the profession. Right or wrong he knows how to argue.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Careful or you will depress them. I mean why do lawyers exist anyways? So accountants have someone to laugh at?

Accountants don't have a sense of humour.