2016 World Cup of Hockey

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Corral

You nailed it here. It was this mystique that made the Canada Cup work so well and made the Eagle lots of money.

Watching NHL stars play each other like they always do, albeit in different uniforms in September. Yawn.

So, you and I are in agreement, then, that this is essentially an insurmountable shortcoming with ALL modern international tournaments. That notwithstanding, then so long as the NHL continues to send its players to the WCH and forego the Olympics there is no question as to which will be the best International hockey tournament moving forward.

It seems utterly futile to me to whine about how much better hockey tournaments were in the '80s than the currently best international tournament as a result of this sociopolitical change.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So, you and I are in agreement, then, that this is essentially an insurmountable shortcoming with ALL modern international tournaments. .

Its a shortcoming with international tournaments from the perspective of interest in Canada and the US. My travels have shown me that outside of these two countries, there is real interest in the international battles whether it is in cricket, rugby, and soccer (aka football).

Ice hockey, basketball, gridiron football, and baseball are not truly international sports - there base is in Canada and the US and so yes they have an insurmountable shortcoming as international tourneys because their fan base is primarily into domestic or local rivalries.

You noted a good exception - one that was born out of the cold war and used to perfection by - well those who were only in hockey get rich on the back of others.

[Itse]

We Europeans love our sports rivalries with our neighbours. Doesn't really matter what sport. I would claim a major reason floorball has become so popular in Finland is because people realized we get to face the Swedes in the world championship final every year

[CroFlames]

It's not like the inaugural soccer world cup had the prestige it does now. Things take time.

The Olympics didn't have the prestige until 1998 and 2002. Does anyone really remember or care about the previous Games ice hockey?

Once Olympic participation is a thing of the past, the World Cup will be as prestigious as any previous tournament, just like the Canada Cup. The bonus is that it's not held during the NHL season or NHL playoffs.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Corral

You nailed it here. It was this mystique that made the Canada Cup work so well and made the Eagle lots of money.

Watching NHL stars play each other like they always do, albeit in different uniforms in September. Yawn.

It's a yawn because nobody can beat Team Canada. Since 2014, the men's national team has been threatened all of once, in a stupid pre-tournament game where the US tried to goon it up.

The league has already shown a willingness to try and artificially raise the talent level with Team North America and Europe, but what they really should be doing is focusing on diluting the strength of the Canadians, at least for the next tournament.

We hear before every Olympics how Canada could field two teams. Well, let's see if we actually can. Do a televised draft; one team is going to get Sid, one team is going to get Price.

OR! If we're trying to create some sort of scenario that breaks the cycle of Team Canada dummying everyone they come up against, maybe a seven game series between Team Canada and the rest of the world. To me, that's the only way you assemble a team that can make things remotely interesting. The 2014 gold medal game put me to sleep, and not just because it started at 5am.

There isn't anyone on earth that can beat the 23 best Canadian hockey players, coached by Mike Babcock, captained by Sid, and backstopped by Price, if we're going strictly on national borders.

Yes it's gimmicky. Do it once. Do it for me.

[TheIronMaiden]

I always thought an inter-provincial tournament would be a lot of fun.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I always thought an inter-provincial tournament would be a lot of fun.

They essentially tried that during the 1994 lockout with the NHLPA 4-on-4 Challenge. It was not fun.

[Itse]

I'd agree that Canada's dominance is kind of killing international tournaments. They've won every best-on-best tournament for 15 years except Turin olympics, and all the womens tournaments on top of that.

Tournaments where you know who wins are not that interesting. I think the interest for the last World Cup was so low in part because it wasn't really competitive. Unless there's more upsets I don't think World Cup of hockey has much chance of growing into a really big event.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'd agree that Canada's dominance is kind of killing international tournaments. They've won every best-on-best tournament for 15 years except Turin olympics, and all the womens tournaments on top of that.

Tournaments where you know who wins are not that interesting. I think the interest for the last World Cup was so low in part because it wasn't really competitive. Unless there's more upsets I don't think World Cup of hockey has much chance of growing into a really big event.

If you look at junior hockey, changes are happening. IIRC since 2010 the USA has won three times and the Finns have won twice and the Canadians only once.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

If you look at junior hockey, changes are happening. IIRC since 2010 the USA has won three times and the Finns have won twice and the Canadians only once.

Maybe, but I don't think that really means much. Those tournaments have such a small sample of the players. If you look at the draft, half the players in the first round are still Canadian. Repeat that for 15 years, and Canada will still have a ridiculous advantage in quality players over all competitors.

Looking at young players, it seems to me like Canada will still have the best player, the best line, the best defensive pair, great goaltending and just completely unmatched depth for the foreseeable future.

Of course with just one game deciding the winner everything is possible, but recently it hasn't even been close.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

If you look at junior hockey, changes are happening. IIRC since 2010 the USA has won three times and the Finns have won twice and the Canadians only once.

Yeah but they win because all Canada's best U20 players are in the NHL.

[TheFlamesVan]

I remember Don Cherry (save it) dug into this a few years ago, why we were getting whooped at the junior level. Canadian teams bring goalies in from all over the world, and use and train them. Canadian goalies are left battling for a few positions with international goalies for the best junior leagues out there. Then when they go play for their national team we throw second tier Canadian goalies in net and they get lit up.

Canada has to do a better job of developing goalies at the junior level. Obviously that isn't to say Canada doesn't have elite goalies, but the list isn't near as deep as it could be.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'd agree that Canada's dominance is kind of killing international tournaments. They've won every best-on-best tournament for 15 years except Turin olympics, and all the womens tournaments on top of that.

Tournaments where you know who wins are not that interesting. I think the interest for the last World Cup was so low in part because it wasn't really competitive. Unless there's more upsets I don't think World Cup of hockey has much chance of growing into a really big event.

It's probably how the hockey is bring played. Canada is winning and they are dominantly grinding teams down.

Canada won 4 out of the 5 Canada Cups but it was exciting and always in doubt.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by TheFlamesVan

I remember Don Cherry (save it) dug into this a few years ago, why we were getting whooped at the junior level. Canadian teams bring goalies in from all over the world, and use and train them. Canadian goalies are left battling for a few positions with international goalies for the best junior leagues out there. Then when they go play for their national team we throw second tier Canadian goalies in net and they get lit up.

Canada has to do a better job of developing goalies at the junior level. Obviously that isn't to say Canada doesn't have elite goalies, but the list isn't near as deep as it could be.

I thought there was a goalie import rule for the Junior leagues these days?

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I thought there was a goalie import rule for the Junior leagues these days?

Yes as of 2013 I think. This was prior to that, but yes a good step in the right direction. Actually I'm surprised I don't recall Don giving his told you so bit on that, it had to of happened. That guy should just run the league .

Outside of everything organizationally that can be done, goalies are normally just useless until they are 25 anyways.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's probably how the hockey is bring played. Canada is winning and they are dominantly grinding teams down.

Canada won 4 out of the 5 Canada Cups but it was exciting and always in doubt.

It's never in doubt because no one country can match us.

Canada has two of the last three Vezina winners, and one of them is Price. They have six #1D on the roster, with easily another four #1 could-win-a-Norris-in-a-career-year level guys waiting in reserve. They have four #1 lines and leave six guys off every year who could slot in and not miss much of a beat. Jeff Carter goes down? Here's Ryan O'Reilly.

Ryan O'Reilly would be the #1C on any other national team besides the Russians, and he's the 15th phone call on this one. Nobody else has that.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Yeah but they win because all Canada's best U20 players are in the NHL.

Other countries are having the same problem these days.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Other countries are having the same problem these days.

This is true too

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It worked for the Canada Cup; it could also work for the current WC of Hockey. What is missing is the mystique of the Soviet Union, who had the best players in the world that no one ever saw.

We will see what happens after there have been a few of these tournaments, especially in the absence of NHL Olympic participation. Of course there is a gimmicky component in the early going, but the hockey played during the event was on the whole very good, and very entertaining. I think players will remain more invested now that they are full partners with the NHL in this venture, and if the players are invested the tournament will be a good one.

Pure speculation - and aside from your assumption about being partners in this venture how do you know what motivates players to be more invested in the WCH?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Corral

Pure speculation - and aside from your assumption about being partners in this venture how do you know what motivates players to be more invested in the WCH?

You're a cheeky bugger.

In any event I think the fact that the PA negotiated for the WCH partnership as part of the last CBA points pretty clearly to their investment.