[News] With the 16th OA pick, the Flames select D Juuso Valimaki

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Since1984

I get all your points and they are valid, I am just saying there is quite a lot to do if you have the time. As a minor hockey league player you may not but would this not be the same in say Bakersfield?

I understand there is less crime there but it almost seems like a bunch of posters on a message board think they know better than the actual NHL executives that chose this location in first place. Hell there are a million better places to be, but it may be possibly that none of them were viable for what Calgary wanted to do with its minor league team?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have an AHL team in say a nice Canadian city but there is only a small few without pre-existing markets that would seriously draw away from the AHL coffers.

Stockton fits its role perfectly - I wish it was still Abbotsford, but looking at the AHL map, that wasn't feasibile.

Most AHL cities are crap anyway - if you want your guys to develop in some grand old city, sign a deal with Zurich. I agree with the 'work your ass off and get to the NHL' camp. Teams need to look out for these kids as well.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Since1984

San Francisco: 1.5 Hours away

San Jose: 1.5 hours Away

Oakland: 1.25 hours away

Sacremento: <1 hour away

Lake Tahoe: 2.5 hours Away



Seems like if you know where to go there is tons to do when you have a day or two away from the rink.



Also you could literally live next door to the Arena, baseball stadium, Civic Auditorium all while having access to the waterfront and your basic necessities. I do feel there is quite a lot to do when you actually research the area.

Kids play hockey, work out, practice. They aren't going to take off for 1.5 hours x2 every Friday to hit SF.

Do you live down here?

[Cgycowboy]

Really excited for this kid

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

[FunkMasterFlame]

Who, this Stockton kid? He sounds sketchy at best.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Since1984

San Francisco: 1.5 Hours away
San Jose: 1.5 hours Away
Oakland: 1.25 hours away
Sacremento: <1 hour away
Lake Tahoe: 2.5 hours Away

Seems like if you know where to go there is tons to do when you have a day or two away from the rink.

Also you could literally live next door to the Arena, baseball stadium, Civic Auditorium all while having access to the waterfront and your basic necessities. I do feel there is quite a lot to do when you actually research the area.

It's the eighth most dangerous city in America, except unlike the major cities on that list Stockton is only 300k so the crime is always close by. Hell, they had a major drive by shooting with like four people shot just a block or two from the arena last season.

And no, young players aren't driving 3-5 hours round trip from where they live to get away from Stockton on a regular basis. Have you seen an AHL player schedule? It's similar to an NHL player, they're constantly back and forth from the arena for practice/film/training/meetings/games.

[Love]

Hey I saw Juuso and Eetu at TD Mall earlier today. That's all

[TheMagicMan]

Need your expertise in draft selection assessment. I was looking at Valimaki stats, who was drafted as the 5th defensemen overall in the draft, and compared it with the other dmen that were selected high. The following are the top 6 dmen selected and their applicable stats.

1) #3 Overall; Stars
M. Heiskanen
HIFK Helsinki; 37 GP, 5 G, 5A 10 points, -1
6 foot, 170 lbs;

2) #4 Overall; Avs
C. Makar
Brooks Bandits; 54 GP, 10 A, 45 A, 55 points, +18
5 foot 11, 180 lbs.

3) #14 Overall; Tbay
C. Foote
Kelowna Rockets; 71 GP, 6 G, 51 A, 57 points, + 39
6 foot 4, 212

4) #15 Overall; Vegas
E. Brannstrom
HV71 Jonkoping; 35 GP, 1 G, 5 A, 6 points, + 10
5 foot 10, 173 lbs

5) #16 Overall; Flames
J. Valimaki
Tri-City Americans; 60 GP, 19 G, 42 A, 61 points; +2
6 foot 2, 204 lbs

6) #17 Overall; Leafs
T. Liljegren
Rogle BK; 24 GP, 1 G, 5 A, 6 pts, -5
6 foot, 191 lbs


I'm no expert, but based on stats, why would Heiskanen and Brnnstrom go so high, with so few points?

Why would Makar go so high, in a lesser league, in the AJHL?

Why was Liljegren ranked so high, with only 6 points?

I'm just trying to understand what the scouts are looking at, as I'm not sure what I'm missing. Based on the stats, I would think Valimaki should be the first defensemen selected. Why was he the 5th?

Any thoughts would help me in my rookie way of looking at things.

Thank you.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by TheMagicMan

I'm no expert, but based on stats, why would Heiskanen and Brnnstrom go so high, with so few points?

Why would Makar go so high, in a lesser league, in the AJHL?

Why was Liljegren ranked so high, with only 6 points?

I'm just trying to understand what the scouts are looking at, as I'm not sure what I'm missing. Based on the stats, I would think Valimaki should be the first defensemen selected. Why was he the 5th?

Any thoughts would help me in my rookie way of looking at things.

Thank you.

Scouts don't draft based on stats. All the players you're comparing play in different leagues so you can't even begin to compare their stats

What are scouts looking at? The players! They watch them when they hop over the boards and focus on them the entire shift. They watch how they defend, how they fight for pucks, how physical they are, how well they move the puck, how well they skate the puck, basically everything they do. After that they have to decide how good they think that 17-18 year old kid will be in 5-6 years in the NHL. Is it hard to compare kids playing in the AJHL vs other kids playing in European pro leagues? You're darn right it is! That's why its a hard job and that's why it isn't an exact science.

Makar went high because he was the most dynamic offensive defensemen in the draft. Heiskanen went high because he was considered the best overall defenseman in the draft. Liljegren had a disappointing year and that's part of the reason he dropped, scouts were disappointed with his decision making it sounded like. Why did he have only 6 points? He was playing in a European men's professional league against men getting limited ice time.

In general trying to evaluate defensemen based on offensive stats is silly. There's a lot more to defending then getting assists. What would their point totals tell you about how well they can clear the crease? What would their point totals tell you about how well they win puck battles in the corners? What would their point totals tell you about how well they angle forwards off? What would their point totals tell you about how good they are at utilizing their stick defensively? Nothing!

Point totals are a horrible way to evaluate defensemen. The only way you can scout players is to watch them.

[TheMagicMan]

What amazes me is that all these scouts typically get the top 10 correct with thousands of players from dozens of leagues worldwide to choose from. It isn't an exact scientific like you day, but their accuracy is remarkable and I still have a hard time believing how accurate they are most of the time.

[IgiTang]

Don't know if has already been discussed but I was curious about anyone else making a comparison of Vilimaki to Juolevi in terms of quality player of that position?

Offensive Numbers are well in Juolevi's favour but he has played the last 2 seasons on a pretty stacked Knights team while Valimaki has been on a not so deep TCA team.

Just curious

[Love]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Offensive Numbers are well in Juolevi's favour but he has played the last 2 seasons on a pretty stacked Knights team while Valimaki has been on a not so deep TCA team.

I don't think they are

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Love

I don't think they are

And to an extent I do agree. The 19 goal drain Valimaki had last season was outstanding, but overall points are in Juolevi favour, no denying that.. but that's not the point.

Point I'm getting at is that in the last 2 drafts the Flames have picked a stud in tkachuk and now have drafted a Dman equally as good if not better than Juolevi.
Valimaki was a beast last season and did it with much less calibre teammates.

[Henry Fool]

I think the main reason Juolevi went so early is that scouts rated his intelligence very high. They see it as predicting a good development path since growing into a top NHL defenseman requires that you're able to steadily adjust and improve your game over many years and that takes a good brain.

Maybe they put too much weight on it, remains to be seen. But only a person who has really watched the players can compare those qualities. Comparing numbers will get you nowhere.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Beninho

lol it's not that bad, weathers nice and the beach is close. I doubt the players are living in tough neighborhoods. God their hockey players for #### sakes, they're fine. Stockton is a lot better than Aidorondack, that was awful

Stockton is probably 100 miles away from anything resembling a beach.

Its Norther Cali...weather is OK but it isn't like its tropical. They can see below freezing temps in the winter, though it can get hotter than a firecracker in the summer.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

And to an extent I do agree. The 19 goal drain Valimaki had last season was outstanding, but overall points are in Juolevi favour, no denying that.. but that's not the point.

Point I'm getting at is that in the last 2 drafts the Flames have picked a stud in tkachuk and now have drafted a Dman equally as good if not better than Juolevi.
Valimaki was a beast last season and did it with much less calibre teammates.

how so?

Juolevi is 5 months older. They have each played 2 seasons. (G: G/A/P, year 1, year 2, total)

Juolevi..: 57: 9 / 33 / 42 , 58: 10 / 32 / 42 , 115: 19 / 65 / 84
Valimaki: 56: 7 / 25 / 32 , 60: 19 / 42 / 61 , 116: 26 / 67 / 93

Valimaki has more goals, more points, and better progression

So I think we can in fact deny it

Edit: fixed the numbers

[Freeway]

When I scout D-men, I generally just note when they're noticeable (for good or bad reasons).

[Flamenfame]

Originally Posted by TheMagicMan

Need your expertise in draft selection assessment. I was looking at Valimaki stats, who was drafted as the 5th defensemen overall in the draft, and compared it with the other dmen that were selected high. The following are the top 6 dmen selected and their applicable stats.

1) #3 Overall; Stars
M. Heiskanen
HIFK Helsinki; 37 GP, 5 G, 5A 10 points, -1
6 foot, 170 lbs;

2) #4 Overall; Avs
C. Makar
Brooks Bandits; 54 GP, 10 A, 45 A, 55 points, +18
5 foot 11, 180 lbs.

3) #14 Overall; Tbay
C. Foote
Kelowna Rockets; 71 GP, 6 G, 51 A, 57 points, + 39
6 foot 4, 212

4) #15 Overall; Vegas
E. Brannstrom
HV71 Jonkoping; 35 GP, 1 G, 5 A, 6 points, + 10
5 foot 10, 173 lbs

5) #16 Overall; Flames
J. Valimaki
Tri-City Americans; 60 GP, 19 G, 42 A, 61 points; +2
6 foot 2, 204 lbs

6) #17 Overall; Leafs
T. Liljegren
Rogle BK; 24 GP, 1 G, 5 A, 6 pts, -5
6 foot, 191 lbs


I'm no expert, but based on stats, why would Heiskanen and Brnnstrom go so high, with so few points?

Why would Makar go so high, in a lesser league, in the AJHL?

Why was Liljegren ranked so high, with only 6 points?

I'm just trying to understand what the scouts are looking at, as I'm not sure what I'm missing. Based on the stats, I would think Valimaki should be the first defensemen selected. Why was he the 5th?

Any thoughts would help me in my rookie way of looking at things.

Thank you.

Simply because they're 17 year olds playing in pro leagues in Sweden and Finland . All the scouts have seen them multiple occasions and they're not judged by stats but skating shot defensive ability and probable upside. Makar is probably the fastest and best skater in this draft and his puck carrying ability is huge. No way Foote should of went ahead of Valimaki as he is far superior in all those regards compared to Foote. His dads reputation got him selected there.

[Erick Estrada]

Yzerman likes big defensemen so them picking Foote isn't exactly a surprise.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Freeway

When I scout D-men, I generally just note when they're noticeable (for good or bad reasons).

When I look at defencemen, I watch the defencemen and more or less ignore the forwards. When I watched Wotherspoon in Abbotsford he was our best defenceman and I'm surprised he isn't in the NHL yet. Trying to scout from a TV doesn't give me the whole story and I don't get out much anymore.

[timbit]

A NHL amateur scout identifies, grades and projects talent with the focus being on the NHL upside and probability that he will play in the NHL down the road.

The area scout will usually have several reports while cross or out of region scouts will provide fewer ( dependent on upside) reports. The head scout and the majority of the amateur staff will have seen a great number of the top 60 players on a teams final list.

The amateur scouting staff will meet in early December and late February to identify preliminary and mid term player emphasis The list is prioritized and finalized at the end of May or early June when the whole staff meets again and grinds it out one by one.

What league or level they play in and how many points they accumulate may be a byproduct/result of their talent evaluation and projection.

It is not a reason for their evaluation and or projection.