2016-17 Toronto Raptors and General NBA Thread

[greyshep]

Well that was one of the least engaging NBA playoffs I have watched in a while.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Tough to not see round four next year unless something unexpected happens. Cavs might finally bring in Carmelo for Kevin Love, but I'm not sure that really changes the Cavs chances other than if you're not going to play any defense you might as well add a top scorer instead.

As to KD, well, he played great and pretty much proved he could have won a ring in OKC too.

How did he prove that?
He played great but that doesn't prove he can carry a team to a championship. He was able to produce on a loaded team.
The only way to prove he could have won a ring in OKC....was to win a ring in OKC.
Otherwise it isn't much different than the criticism that Lebron got for winning in Miami.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by kmart

Lebron will go down as the better player, but Kobe was much more enjoyable to watch. This era does have a Kobe anymore, I'll miss the way he posted up and wore down defenders all game. I almost think Kobe is underrated with all these stats, considering the era Kobe came from. You're making him out to be this player wasn't near the player Lebron was.

To me Lebron is the Floyd Mayweather of basketball. He's done everything he can to outlive the normal basketball career regression and like Floyd, Lebron is probably the smartest in his sport. He joined Bosh and Wade in their prime, he left them when they were injured plagued. He joined Cleveland with 3 first overall picks with 2 great younger players. The rest, the roster managing, the complaints. He's brilliant in the way he navigated his career, to the point where he's been in the finals for 7 straight years. However, Jordan is the much superior player he's a better Kobe.

Lebron carried those Miami teams. Bosh and a worn down Wade (his prime was 2006) are basically total garbage compared to a prime Scottie Pippen (for MJ) or Shaq (for Kobe). Hell, Durant joining a 73 win team is just a different order of magnitude from Lebron carrying that relatively mundane Miami team.

You say it's navigating his career, but Lebron is so good he'd be doing the exact same thing on any team in the NBA. Every team in the NBA has a middling "star" (like the Raps with Derozan). You add Lebron to that team and that's immediately a Finals/Championship level team.

Edit: Hell, the early year Cavs with Ilgauskas, Dahntay Jones, Mo Williams were a finals level team just because of Lebron.

Also, Lebron will go down as the better player than Kobe because Lebron is on a completely different level than Kobe. Kobe is basically Durant where you can win on a stacked team, but on any other team you're just a great player - Kobe missed the playoffs when his Lakers team wasn't stacked. Lebron carried a garbage team (Cavs circa 2004-2009) to the finals. Lebron and MJ are the greatest. Kobe is in that next tier along with Shaq, Pippen, Iverson, Durant, Duncan and so forth.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah I feel like LeBron gets hated on just because he is actually so close to Jordan, that all the Jordan lovers have to try to downplay how good he actually is and discredit him to keep Jordan on his pedestal.

It makes me laugh that they always discredit LeBron for his teammates but then don't do the same for Jordan w/ Pippen and Co.

[SuperMatt18]

Double Post

Jordan is the best ever but LeBron is closer than anybody likes to give him credit for IMO.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah I feel like LeBron gets hated on just because he is actually so close to Jordan, that all the Jordan lovers have to try to downplay how good he actually is and discredit him to keep Jordan on his pedestal.

It makes me laugh that they always discredit LeBron for his teammates but then don't do the same for Jordan w/ Pippen and Co.

People hate on/downplay Lebron because of the way he exited Cleveland. And rightfully so.

A press conference to create a 'super team' and leave your hometown?

People loved Lebron in Cleveland 1.0.

He deserves getting hammered by a even better super team.

The NBA is in big trouble next year. I could see GS easily winning 70+ without trying now that they are familiar with each other.

I honestly don't know how they can not win, baring a season ending injury or two.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

How did he prove that?
He played great but that doesn't prove he can carry a team to a championship. He was able to produce on a loaded team.
The only way to prove he could have won a ring in OKC....was to win a ring in OKC.
Otherwise it isn't much different than the criticism that Lebron got for winning in Miami.

It's a lot different than LeBron. The Heat won 47 games the year before LeBron joined. The Warriors won 73. Heat were 15 games from winning the title in 2009-10. The Warriors were one game away. And yeah, the Thunder were kind of one game away from eliminating a team who went 73-9. It's not like they were miles away from a title like the 09-10 Heat and Cavs were, they were basically five minutes of better basketball away from at least making the Finals, after beating the 67 win Spurs and the 73 win Warriors to get there. That sounds like a pretty good team.

It might have taken another season, or maybe two, but it definitely could have been done in OKC with Durant. Instead he effectively took the late career veteran approach of trying to gravy train to a ring, kind of like David West. And as we saw last year, LeBron's Cavs ring is viewed significantly more positively than either ring with the Heat. Durant's ring doesn't even mean as much as Kawhi Leonard's, a player he once mocked as a system player. Durant can now be called a gravy trainer. I'd rather be the "system guy" (which in hindsight was a rather moronic comment from KD).

[steve9981]

Nm

[kevman]

From an outsiders perspective LeBrons game is so boring. Uses his size to back into people and push them out of the way. Maybe it's just the hockey fan in me but I find teams that pass the ball around with great shooting so much more fun to watch. At least Irving has some crazy moves when he's doing the 1 on 1 thing.

I think if I were Durant this would feel a little cheaper than doing it on his old team. Kind of a sandbagger move if you ask me. But that said, LeBron started it. (Or maybe someone else started it before him?)

[killer_carlson]

I wonder if Durant would go to Cleveland if Cleveland moved Love?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Durant is not going anywhere unless it's back to OKC for redemption, and even then why? This isn't like the Heat who mismanaged their roster beyond the big three, the Warriors are basically the new Spurs, they're in for a 10-20 year run of greatness, especially when they move to San Francisco where they'll seriously jack up the prices and make even more money. Warriors will probably trade Klay too and get a few more young pieces to keep the train rolling.

Absolute best case scenario for the Cavs is they somehow convince the Pacers to take Kevin Love for Paul George, and even then I'm not sure that's enough to beat the Warriors. Cleveland is in a pretty bad spot right now, they basically need a Nets-Celtics debacle type trade to bail them out. I suspect next year we see Carmelo instead of Kevin Love, and one more shot at a ring before LeBron leaves again.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I wonder if Durant would go to Cleveland if Cleveland moved Love?

Durant and LeBron would not mix well at all in my opinion. LeBron needs a mix of good players willing to be passengers on his game. Can't see Durant willing to do that, and anyone not willing to be a pawn in LeBron's game quickly gets jetsoned out of his City.

[kmart]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

It's a lot different than LeBron. The Heat won 47 games the year before LeBron joined. The Warriors won 73. Heat were 15 games from winning the title in 2009-10. The Warriors were one game away. And yeah, the Thunder were kind of one game away from eliminating a team who went 73-9. It's not like they were miles away from a title like the 09-10 Heat and Cavs were, they were basically five minutes of better basketball away from at least making the Finals, after beating the 67 win Spurs and the 73 win Warriors to get there. That sounds like a pretty good team.

It might have taken another season, or maybe two, but it definitely could have been done in OKC with Durant. Instead he effectively took the late career veteran approach of trying to gravy train to a ring, kind of like David West. And as we saw last year, LeBron's Cavs ring is viewed significantly more positively than either ring with the Heat. Durant's ring doesn't even mean as much as Kawhi Leonard's, a player he once mocked as a system player. Durant can now be called a gravy trainer. I'd rather be the "system guy" (which in hindsight was a rather moronic comment from KD).

I don't really like this argument to justify what Lebron did, Lebron joined in the same offseason as Chris Bosh did after Chris Bosh joined the Heat. He knew what he was getting into and it certainly wasn't just a 47 win Heat team, it was a 47 win Heat team that just added Chris Bosh.

When Lebron left the Heat, Wade was 32 entering the period past his prime, again Lebron knew what he was doing. He is certainly one of the greatest all time, probably the smartest of all time. He has done a perfect job of avoiding older players ever since his first departure from Cleveland.

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Also, Lebron will go down as the better player than Kobe because Lebron is on a completely different level than Kobe. Kobe is basically Durant where you can win on a stacked team, but on any other team you're just a great player - Kobe missed the playoffs when his Lakers team wasn't stacked. Lebron carried a garbage team (Cavs circa 2004-2009) to the finals. Lebron and MJ are the greatest. Kobe is in that next tier along with Shaq, Pippen, Iverson, Durant, Duncan and so forth.

What about the 09 and 10 Lakers where they won the title led by Kobe? You would call them stacked? Gasol, Bynum, Odom??

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by redmile04

What about the 09 and 10 Lakers where they won the title led by Kobe? You would call them stacked? Gasol, Bynum, Odom??

And to add to that, when the heck has LeBron ever won on a team that wasn't stacked? The guy handpicks an allstar team each and every year to surround Himself with. We are talking about a guy who actually complained that Cleveland didn't spend enough money this year when They had one the highest payroll is in the history of the game.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by kmart

I don't really like this argument to justify what Lebron did, Lebron joined in the same offseason as Chris Bosh did after Chris Bosh joined the Heat. He knew what he was getting into and it certainly wasn't just a 47 win Heat team, it was a 47 win Heat team that just added Chris Bosh.

When Lebron left the Heat, Wade was 32 entering the period past his prime, again Lebron knew what he was doing. He is certainly one of the greatest all time, probably the smartest of all time. He has done a perfect job of avoiding older players ever since his first departure from Cleveland.

I'm not justifying what LeBron did, I'm saying what Durant did was worse and I'd like the hope to most people it's not even close. If the Heat didn't add LeBron and Bosh, they are first round fodder, and if they only added LeBron they are maybe in the Finals, highly likely to lose it. If the Warriors didn't add Durant, they would still have been the heavy favorites to win it all, with still only two teams with a slight chance to beat them. What LeBron did was bad, but reminder that the Heat didn't even win the title their first year, or even finish first in their conference. LeBron would still be on the Heat if they developed a roster like the Warriors, but they basically did what Cleveland is currently doing, hoping a roster of ring chasing vets and mid-level exception players can prop up a big three.

Originally Posted by redmile04

What about the 09 and 10 Lakers where they won the title led by Kobe? You would call them stacked? Gasol, Bynum, Odom??

Without the Gasol trade they wouldn't have won anything. They were toiling in first round exit land before that trade. And that stretch of the NBA from 2008-2010 was pretty awful, that Magic team that made the Finals in particular is just dreadful. If anything Dwight Howard taking that team to the Finals is more impressive than anything Kobe or LeBron has done (thought that 2007 Cavs team that made the Finals is pretty awful too). I mean Rashard Lewis and Hedo "Ball" Turkoglu as your number two and three options...and they made the Finals. Amazing really. Easy to see why Laker fans were so psyched to get Howard at the time, and then of course it all fell off a cliff for Dwight.

[Love]

Originally Posted by redmile04

What about the 09 and 10 Lakers where they won the title led by Kobe? You would call them stacked? Gasol, Bynum, Odom??

I don't think you remember 2010 Gasol, Bynum, Artest and Odom. They were dominant.

[Love]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

And to add to that, when the heck has LeBron ever won on a team that wasn't stacked? The guy handpicks an allstar team each and every year to surround Himself with. We are talking about a guy who actually complained that Cleveland didn't spend enough money this year when They had one the highest payroll is in the history of the game.

If Lebron was drafted in Durants situation and was surrounded by Young Russell, Baby Harden, Reggie Jackson, Ibaka, Thabo and Perkins with dudes like Collison and Fish coming off the bench, he would have 5+ rings by now.

He was going toe to toe with the Celtics and the Spurs both straddled with 4 HOF'ers on each roster BY HIMSELF. He carried one of the worst rosters ever to the finals solo. You make it sound like he abandoned Cleveland. He played there for 7 years. 7 years and the team did nothing to surround himself with even an ounce of talent for him to play with. He turned Mo Williams and Anderson Varajao into all stars. Kobe had Shaq and Gasol. Jordan had Pippen and Rodman. KD had Russ and Ibaka. Steph had Draymond and Klay. Who did Lebron have? I'm tired of people trying to make it seem like he dipped out on his teammates the first chance he got. He signed an extension and spent nearly a decade of his career (and huge chunk of his athletic prime) trying to win with Cleveland and the team management did nothing to help him achieve that goal.

Also, those Miami teams definitely weren't stacked. Stacked is the 2017 Golden State Warriors. It was never a foregon conclusion that the Heat would cakewalk their way to a chip. Boston gave them troubles. Indiana gave them troubles, San Antonio gave them trouble. Those dominant Heat teams were a testament to Lebrons greatness. Without Lebron, Bosh and Wade are probably a third or fourth seed, a good, but not great team. We're talking about the same Bosh and Wade who went from the top seed in the east in 2014, to out of the playoffs in 2015. Without Kevin Durant the Warriors are a 73 win team, and without him in OKC the team still won nearly 50 games compared to the Cavaliers who plunged immediately into the basement as soon as Lebron left. Did you know that the current iteration Cavs (2.0 / Kyrie & Love) STILL HAVE NOT won a game in which Lebron has sat out? Yeah, that ""stacked'" team is like 0-11 when Kyrie and Love play, but Lebron doesn't. Doesn't sound all that stacked to me...

Yeah go ahead and hate Lebron for trying to surround himself with talent for the first time in his career, but one thing he never did was eliminate his competition - in the sense of taking your only threats best player thus rendering them and the rest of the conference a pity.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Love

If Lebron was drafted in Durants situation and was surrounded by Young Russell, Baby Harden, Reggie Jackson, Ibaka, Thabo and Perkins with dudes like Collison and Fish coming off the bench, he would have 5+ rings by now.

He was going toe to toe with the Celtics and the Spurs both straddled with 4 HOF'ers on each roster BY HIMSELF. He carried one of the worst rosters ever to the finals solo. You make it sound like he abandoned Cleveland. He played there for 7 years. 7 years and the team did nothing to surround himself with even an ounce of talent for him to play with. He turned Mo Williams and Anderson Varajao into all stars. Kobe had Shaq and Gasol. Jordan had Pippen and Rodman. KD had Russ and Ibaka. Steph had Draymond and Klay. Who did Lebron have? I'm tired of people trying to make it seem like he dipped out on his teammates the first chance he got. He signed an extension and spent nearly a decade of his career (and huge chunk of his athletic prime) trying to win with Cleveland and the team management did nothing to help him achieve that goal.

Also, those Miami teams definitely weren't stacked. Stacked is the 2017 Golden State Warriors. It was never a foregon conclusion that the Heat would cakewalk their way to a chip. Boston gave them troubles. Indiana gave them troubles, San Antonio gave them trouble. Those dominant Heat teams were a testament to Lebrons greatness. Without Lebron, Bosh and Wade are probably a third or fourth seed, a good, but not great team. We're talking about the same Bosh and Wade who went from the top seed in the east in 2014, to out of the playoffs in 2015. Without Kevin Durant the Warriors are a 73 win team, and without him in OKC the team still won nearly 50 games compared to the Cavaliers who plunged immediately into the basement as soon as Lebron left. Did you know that the current iteration Cavs (2.0 / Kyrie & Love) STILL HAVE NOT won a game in which Lebron has sat out? Yeah, that ""stacked'" team is like 0-11 when Kyrie and Love play, but Lebron doesn't. Doesn't sound all that stacked to me...

Yeah go ahead and hate Lebron for trying to surround himself with talent for the first time in his career, but one thing he never did was eliminate his competition - in the sense of taking your only threats best player thus rendering them and the rest of the conference a pity.

It was always a foregone conclusion that the Heat would likely walk their way to championships. As soon as the announcement was made all the talk of the time was if they would beat the Chicago Bulls wins in a season record just like the talk is now with Golden State.

The fact that the Heat didn't win more championships or even come close to breaking the Bulls record in a very weak Eastern Conference adds a lot of credibility to the train of thought that LeBron is not on the same echelon as Jordan or Kobe. You surround any of those two with players the Caliber of Wade, Bosh, Allen, and it's forgone conclusion who would have the championship each and every year.

Great player in a living legend, but he's in the echelon of Magic, Thomas, Bird, type of legend, not Jordan or Kobe in my opinion (and I dislike Kobe much more than I dislike LeBron).

[kmart]

Originally Posted by Love

If Lebron was drafted in Durants situation and was surrounded by Young Russell, Baby Harden, Reggie Jackson, Ibaka, Thabo and Perkins with dudes like Collison and Fish coming off the bench, he would have 5+ rings by now.

He was going toe to toe with the Celtics and the Spurs both straddled with 4 HOF'ers on each roster BY HIMSELF. He carried one of the worst rosters ever to the finals solo. You make it sound like he abandoned Cleveland. He played there for 7 years. 7 years and the team did nothing to surround himself with even an ounce of talent for him to play with. He turned Mo Williams and Anderson Varajao into all stars. Kobe had Shaq and Gasol. Jordan had Pippen and Rodman. KD had Russ and Ibaka. Steph had Draymond and Klay. Who did Lebron have? I'm tired of people trying to make it seem like he dipped out on his teammates the first chance he got. He signed an extension and spent nearly a decade of his career (and huge chunk of his athletic prime) trying to win with Cleveland and the team management did nothing to help him achieve that goal.

Also, those Miami teams definitely weren't stacked. Stacked is the 2017 Golden State Warriors. It was never a foregon conclusion that the Heat would cakewalk their way to a chip. Boston gave them troubles. Indiana gave them troubles, San Antonio gave them trouble. Those dominant Heat teams were a testament to Lebrons greatness. Without Lebron, Bosh and Wade are probably a third or fourth seed, a good, but not great team. We're talking about the same Bosh and Wade who went from the top seed in the east in 2014, to out of the playoffs in 2015. Without Kevin Durant the Warriors are a 73 win team, and without him in OKC the team still won nearly 50 games compared to the Cavaliers who plunged immediately into the basement as soon as Lebron left. Did you know that the current iteration Cavs (2.0 / Kyrie & Love) STILL HAVE NOT won a game in which Lebron has sat out? Yeah, that ""stacked'" team is like 0-11 when Kyrie and Love play, but Lebron doesn't. Doesn't sound all that stacked to me...

Yeah go ahead and hate Lebron for trying to surround himself with talent for the first time in his career, but one thing he never did was eliminate his competition - in the sense of taking your only threats best player thus rendering them and the rest of the conference a pity.

You act as if Lebron's Miami teams were awful. They are far from awful, in fact if you can't see that they were "stacked" I don't know what to tell you.

In Miami you had:
Prime Chris Bosh (HOF player, perennial all-star)
Prime Dwayne Wade (HOF player, perennial MVP candidate)
Ray Allen (greatest spot up shooter of all time)

If that team wasn't stacked I don't know what is. That team struggled against the Pacers with players like Hibbert and Stephenson on the team. Hibbert and Stephenson are hardly even playing prominent roles in the NBA anymore. The fact that Miami struggled against the Pacers speaks more to Miami than it does the Pacers.

As for the current record of Cavs without Lebron, I believe that speaks more to the isolation that Lebron's teams frequently play than it does about Kyrie or Love. Of course you'd be lost when the player who dominates the ball doesn't play.